Gun violence in the USA

[peterms]

35 minutes ago, colhint said:

The argument should be the 2nd Amendment states citizens have the right to bear arms for protection. So if the US military has nukes how can I protect against that without the same. The the supreme court has to decide if the 2nd ammendent is valid or it's too risky to let people to have them. 

I don't know much about the US constitution, but I'm not aware it limits the type or extent of arms that can be borne.

On the other hand, the right to keep and bear arms as part of a well-regulated militia (which would not describe the various loonbucket supremacist groups in the US) is not the same as the right to acquire, keep, and use them in a purely personal capacity.  I believe that's an old argument in the US.

[colhint]

Oh I agree with you. But your first sentence could be key. It doesn't limit. So could a clever lawyer argue that with no limits in the constitution could a student as a witness/victim to a mass shooting be entitled to have a nuke. That's where the Supreme court has to decide. Yes they can, therefore the 2nd amendment rules or no it's far too dangerous, then the second amendment is invalid.

[OutByEaster?]

The problem is that the constitution is garbage. It needs changing, not subverting. When a document written to serve a society causes that society harm, you change the document, not the society.

 

[penguin]

Left wing shooter and a right winger shooter in the space of a day ideology is not the issue instead of people trying to score points on this (not talking about here). Surely then point is stopping these nut jobs access to, especially automatic, weapons. Absolute madness someone can buy a weapon capable of decimating hundreds in the name of self defence. 

[Keyblade]

1 hour ago, penguin said:

Left wing shooter and a right winger shooter in the space of a day ideology is not the issue instead of people trying to score points on this (not talking about here). Surely then point is stopping these nut jobs access to, especially automatic, weapons. Absolute madness someone can buy a weapon capable of decimating hundreds in the name of self defence. 

I agree with you on the scoring points...point. the Daytona shooter was a leftist judging from his Twitter account but there didn't seem to be any political motivation unearthed behind his shooting. From what I can see, he was a violent misogynist and had been since his highschool days at least. But that hasn't stopped people from deflecting to his politics and away from the issue at hand which is the availability and easy access to guns.

Though I would point out that the majority of these shootings do seem to be politically motivated, almost always of a white nationalist flavour so that's definitely also something to look into.

[Dr_Pangloss]

7 hours ago, penguin said:

Left wing shooter and a right winger shooter in the space of a day ideology is not the issue instead of people trying to score points on this (not talking about here). Surely then point is stopping these nut jobs access to, especially automatic, weapons. Absolute madness someone can buy a weapon capable of decimating hundreds in the name of self defence. 

There's a problem on both political sides, it's much worse on the far right, but I see the left (far left that is) as an emerging issue. One only has to look at the footage of your average ANTIFA rally to see the horrific tone they have and the tendency towards violence that they have, not a massive leap to see a couple of ANTIFA idiots taking to arms at some point in the future and causing a major incident.

Obviously the issue is far deeper than what your political leanings are, it's a gun obsessed society which treats gun ownership as an inalienable right. That simply has to change if that country ever wants to be serious about the issue.

Edited August 6, 2019 by Dr_Pangloss

[villa4europe]

@Keyblade  is right, its the  usual response to a mass shooting

days of trying to pigeon hole the shooter so they can work out exactly what to fix

political ideology, nationality, religion, mental health, computer games and music will all be talked about long after the debate about his access to the guns has finished

I did see a politician yesterday blame the gays and the NFL for it all

 

[Keyblade]

19 minutes ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

There's a problem on both political sides, it's much worse on the far right, but I see the left (far left that is) as an emerging issue. One only has to look at the footage of your average ANTIFA rally to see the horrific tone they have and the tendency towards violence that they have, not a massive leap to see a couple of ANTIFA idiots taking to arms at some point in the future and causing a major incident.

Obviously the issue is far deeper than what your political leanings are, it's a gun obsessed society which treats gun ownership as an inalienable right. That simply has to change if that country ever wants to be serious about the issue.

Let's not "both sides" this issue. All this Antifa scaremongering does is obfuscate the threat they're opposing in the first place.

Antifa has claimed 0 lives and maybe a few milkshaked outfits while the ones they're opposing have a body count approaching 100 this year and it's only August. There's no comparison.

[Dr_Pangloss]

1 minute ago, Keyblade said:

Let's not "both sides" this issue. All this Antifa scaremongering does is obfuscate the threat they're opposing in the first place.

Antifa has claimed 0 lives and maybe a few milkshaked outfits while the ones they're opposing have a body count approaching 100 this year and it's only August. There's no comparison.

I was very clear to weight it heavily on the right and call ANTIFA an emerging issue, which they are.

[Keyblade]

3 minutes ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

I was very clear to weight it heavily on the right and call ANTIFA an emerging issue, which they are.

They've been an emerging issue for what, 3 years now? Not a single death. Still waiting for them to emerge any day now.

Even bringing them up in the same breath as the far right does that threat a disservice.

[Dr_Pangloss]

Just now, Keyblade said:

They've been an emerging issue for what, 3 years now? Not a single death. Still waiting for them to emerge any day now.

Even bringing them up in the same breath as the far right does that threat a disservice.

OK sure, you only have to see the increasing violence at their own rally's to see the direction they're going in. My post was clear but whatever

[villa89]

15 hours ago, OutByEaster? said:

The problem is that the constitution is garbage. It needs changing, not subverting. When a document written to serve a society causes that society harm, you change the document, not the society.

I really hate it when people in any country refer to the constitution like it is some holy document written by clairvoyants. Every country should be re-writing their constitutions every ~30 years to keep up with the changes in society. Legislation is always miles behind where it needs to be.    

Edited August 6, 2019 by villa89

[Dr_Pangloss]

29 minutes ago, villa89 said:

I really hate it when people in any country refer to the constitution like it is some holy document written by clairvoyants. Every country should be re-writing their constitutions every ~30 years to keep up with the changes in society. Legislation is always miles behind where it needs to be.    

As dogmatic anyone who takes a 'holy' book seriously.

[villa4europe]

3 minutes ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

As dogmatic anyone who takes a 'holy' book seriously.

and then you have the yanks who consider their constitution as a god given right...

it doesn't take long to find someone on social media who genuinely believes he can have an assault rifle because God says he can

[Keyblade]

6 hours ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

OK sure, you only have to see the increasing violence at their own rally's to see the direction they're going in. My post was clear but whatever

There's no such thing as an Antifa rally lol. They're not an organized group by any stretch. It's just people who show up to protest fascists. Sometimes things get hairy (they are dealing with fascists after all), but you'll likely never see it escalating to murder or mass shootings because that's just not in the nature of protests.

The ones they're protesting though are actually genocidal, so it's not surprising that almost 100 people were slain at their hands this year. The focus should 100% be on them is all I'm saying. 

[A'Villan]

I don't want to post the article but Dylan Roof, the white supremacist who killed 9 blacks at a church, has been beaten in jail.

Subsequently his assaulter has been bailed out of jail and is being afforded temporary housing, cash and clothing.

[Dr_Pangloss]

1 hour ago, Keyblade said:

There's no such thing as an Antifa rally lol. They're not an organized group by any stretch. It's just people who show up to protest fascists. Sometimes things get hairy (they are dealing with fascists after all), but you'll likely never see it escalating to murder or mass shootings because that's just not in the nature of protests.

This is just wrong, what else would you call the various 'protests' in Portland Oregon which have turned extremely hostile and violent. 

[villakram]

9 minutes ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

This is just wrong, what else would you call the various 'protests' in Portland Oregon which have turned extremely hostile and violent. 

Yup, plenty of vids online of straight up thuggery by the Antifa crowd. However, it can only be expected that the a left version of such thinking would emerge to counter those on the right eventually. 

[Dr_Pangloss]

2 minutes ago, villakram said:

Yup, plenty of vids online of straight up thuggery by the Antifa crowd. However, it can only be expected that the a left version of such thinking would emerge to counter those on the right eventually. 

That's about right but shouldn't they shouldn't be defended. Not as awful as the far right in that country, no where near as awful in fact, but still awful!

[Keyblade]

15 minutes ago, Dr_Pangloss said:

This is just wrong, what else would you call the various 'protests' in Portland Oregon which have turned extremely hostile and violent. 

You'd imagine such vehemently opposed groups (one of whose ideology is literally violence and genocide) to get hostile and violent with each other. Charlottesville is another example of such hostilities boiling over. Guess which side murdered someone that day?

We're in a thread about gun violence and mass shootings. Talking about Antifa, who have no such shootings in their name, only serves to obfuscate from the real problem. It's what the Whitehouse has been trying to do as well. I can't imagine any other reason to bring them up in here.