Gun violence in the USA

[villa4europe]

6 minutes ago, Dom_Wren said:

People trying to do me harm. Slim i know.

like I said on the previous page, that is the honest answer (appreciate it) followed up by the correct answer

I genuinely think people in the UK and the majority of Europe and the likes of Canada, japan etc just don't have the day to day fear that people living in America have but that fear is nothing new, its been projected on to Americans for decades in different ways, not sure if its government control or what

I actually think that fear is also a completely foreign concept to most, it is to me, I just don't get it, why would you live like that?

the gun range stuff I completely understand, if I lived in America or it was an option here it is almost definitely something I would do as a hobby 

[chrisp65]

5 minutes ago, Dom_Wren said:

Didn't call it at all.....

Enjoy lads im out, if anyone wants a dialogue, my pm's are open!

Great, now it looks like I need a knife and a gun.

This is the problem though isn’t it.

How do you distinguish between the good stable folks we all are on VT, versus getting in to a debate, toe to toe, and it turns out the other person is a thin skinned paranoid gun carrier? It means you also need a gun, which means your neighbour needs a gun in case you flip out and shoot his kids.

It’s seriously **** up. You can’t be a sensitive soul and have a gun in the car, that is just plain scary. I guess as long as no gun carriers ever flip out, ever get mentally ill, hear voices, get roid rage or road rage or drugged up or drunk or racist or anything phobic then everything will be just fine.

I can completely understand, in a country awash with guns, that if you live in a remote spot, 45 minutes from a police response, then a gun becomes your insurance at home. The genie is a long time out of the bottle.

Driving around with one to feel safe? How is that morally superior to carrying a knife in London?

 

[Mic09]

19 minutes ago, Dom_Wren said:

People trying to do me harm. Slim i know.

I've got no problem with people "Anti Gun" or "I wouldn't own one etc.." No problem at all. I find some people have an issue with a personal legal choice of me exercising a right.

That what always gets me! I am supposed to understand 'the other side' and when i say, fair enough personal choice etc.. some people (not you, i don't think!), have a  pop, and i'm like, okkkkkkkkkkkk.

I used to have a firearms enthusiast thread, but stopped posting it, because it got hijacked, despite pming asking mods, and posting several disclaimers, that if you didnt like firearms, target shooting etc... then why would you be in it!?

Same with this thread, I feel the lack of understanding of law abiding citizens want and right to exercise a legal option for self defense is stopping a real dialogue within the US. It feels like Gun owner=Bad Gun owner. I don't have the solutions, but its nice to be able to have a point of view without being ridiculed for it. 

 

I have seen one poster saying that you there is no such thing as a responsible gun owner.

I would like to disagree, and I don't think I have to prove that there is one - I think that anyone who backs this statements needs to prove that @Dom_Wren, or millions of other people owning guns aren't responsible.

Unfortunately, once someone does prove 'irresponsible' it often has very sad consequences. 

The sad truth is, the issue is much more complex then 'ban the guns'. If you ban the guns, guess what - the bad guys will still own guns. 

Edited September 4, 2019 by Mic09

[Chindie]

And theres bad guys everywhere.

Somehow, places like the UK and Australia get by without having a firearm at hand at all times, just in case.

[chrisp65]

10 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

Unfortunately, once someone does prove 'irresponsible' it often has very sad consequences. 

The sad truth is, the issue is much more complex then 'ban the guns'. If you ban the guns, guess what - the bad guys will still own guns. 

I take it ‘irresponsible’ is short hand for murder loads of children?

 

Let’s hope the bad guys never break in to the good guys cars. Imagine that, imagine how dangerous it could get if there was such a thing as car crime.

[Mic09]

I really think that this discussion is fruitless. 

I am not saying that the use of guns is good or that people should own guns.

All I am saying is that, there are people who own guns and do so responsibly. There are instances where this has saved lives. I know for a fact that IF I was to own a gun, I would not use it, unless they have attacked me and my family at home. I see no other purpose for it.

Many people share that feeling. And ownership of a gun in that specific scenario does not result in mass shootings, school massacres or similar. These crimes have a much different deeper and more complex root than 'owning a gun'.

Therefore I believe that this discussion is much more complex than 'some countries live without firearms' or 'if I owned a gun I could have hurt myself'. There are many cultural, and personal issues to deal with.

[chrisp65]

It’s not fruitless, it’s worth thrashing it out and all testing our theories and beliefs on each other, someone might learn something. I genuinely mean that, it’s an interesting discussion.

Of course it’s complex. Life is complex. Keeping a gun in a car is complex.

Do you keep it in your lap so you can drive by defend someone, or locked in a safe box, so you have to stop, unlock, load... If you have time to do all that, should you have simply driven faster to clear the area?

Perhaps you saw someone being shot? Do you shoot the shooter? What if the shooter was killing a killer? Do I now shoot you for shooting the shooter? If you had time to assess this, perhaps a shoot out wasn’t the best plan?

 

[Chindie]

Loads of Americans keep a gun for protecting their family.

And it's kept purely for that for most of them.

Then theres a few that have a blazing row and win the argument permanently. 

Or have a really bad day at work, and turn up the next day to show their boss, and his secretary, and the security, and the tea lady, how angry they are.

Or just have enough and blow their brains out, with some company for the trip at the supermarket.

Or finally stop pretending and decide to show the world their rage.

...in the UK, it's quite hard to do that and for it have significant consequences. As opposed to reaching into your bedside drawer and pulling a trigger a few times.

[Mic09]

10 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

It’s not fruitless, it’s worth thrashing it out and all testing our theories and beliefs on each other, someone might learn something. I genuinely mean that, it’s an interesting discussion.

Of course it’s complex. Life is complex. Keeping a gun in a car is complex.

Do you keep it in your lap so you can drive by defend someone, or locked in a safe box, so you have to stop, unlock, load... If you have time to do all that, should you have simply driven faster to clear the area?

Perhaps you saw someone being shot? Do you shoot the shooter? What if the shooter was killing a killer? Do I now shoot you for shooting the shooter? If you had time to assess this, perhaps a shoot out wasn’t the best plan?

 

Maybe you are right, testing all the theories is good idea. I am all for a good discussion.

So tell me, someone breaks into your house and they shout that they will kill everyone and you have no way to escape and have to face the intruder. 

Do you wish you would have owned a gun?

The only reason I'm asking is because that is the only instant where I would have used a gun. I'm wondering how you might react in that specific situation.

[kurtsimonw]

3 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

Maybe you are right, testing all the theories is good idea. I am all for a good discussion.

So tell me, someone breaks into your house and they shout that they will kill everyone and you have no way to escape and have to face the intruder. 

Do you wish you would have owned a gun?

The only reason I'm asking is because that is the only instant where I would have used a gun. I'm wondering how you might react in that specific situation.

Response a) If we're in a country with guns, the intruder would have a gun knowing we'd likely be defending ourselves with 1. You're dead either way because if you don't have a gun, you'll be shot before disarming him. If you do, it should have it locked away securely, and you'd be dead before retrieving it.

Response b) if we're not in a country with guns, the intruder wouldn't have one and I'd try and defend myself.

So in this incredibly specific situation, even if I did think having a gun would be a good idea, it would only become a relevant factor on my part if I had it on me when he broke in. In that case... it's a worrying idea that people just carry their gun around the house with them.

[villa4europe]

5 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

Maybe you are right, testing all the theories is good idea. I am all for a good discussion.

So tell me, someone breaks into your house and they shout that they will kill everyone and you have no way to escape and have to face the intruder. 

Do you wish you would have owned a gun?

The only reason I'm asking is because that is the only instant where I would have used a gun. I'm wondering how you might react in that specific situation.

percentage chance of that happening? incredibly low, really really low

what is the % of deaths in the states from violent intruders compared to that of shootings? i'm going to guess its lower

that's fear of flying but ok to drive type logic

[chrisp65]

3 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

Maybe you are right, testing all the theories is good idea. I am all for a good discussion.

So tell me, someone breaks into your house and they shout that they will kill everyone and you have no way to escape and have to face the intruder. 

Do you wish you would have owned a gun?

The only reason I'm asking is because that is the only instant where I would have used a gun. I'm wondering how you might react in that specific situation.

There will be thousands of possible outcomes here, but ok, lets do a few.

Am I keeping the gun by my bed and ready to fire? Because if they are in the house already and threatening to kill me, they’re unlikely to let me pop down stairs and unlock the padlock on the steel gun case.

If the gun is available and ready to use, which is the more likely scenario: 1 a murderer breaks in and comes up the stairs shouting advance warning of his intentions, or 2, my teenage son manages to get hold of it after a bad day in school?

[Mic09]

1 minute ago, kurtsimonw said:

Response a) If we're in a country with guns, the intruder would have a gun knowing we'd likely be defending ourselves with 1. You're dead either way because if you don't have a gun, you'll be shot before disarming him. If you do, it should have it locked away securely, and you'd be dead before retrieving it.

Response b) if we're not in a country with guns, the intruder wouldn't have one and I'd try and defend myself.

So in this incredibly specific situation, even if I did think having a gun would be a good idea, it would only become a relevant factor on my part if I had it on me when he broke in. In that case... it's a worrying idea that people just carry their gun around the house with them.

a) If someone breaks in, it's usually at night. If it's at night, you are in your bedroom which you could lock and reach for the safe to get the gun.

b) it's possible they would. There is plenty of firearm crime in the UK. 

There are many hypotheticals and assumptions in play here so using an anecdotal example might not prove effective. You might be right, but I could be right too. We just don't know. 

Again, I am not for owning guns, but knocking down the idea of owning a gun because there are mass shootings does not hold up. I just think that the issue is too complex to have a simple answer to, and I feel like some posters see the world in a very black and white light. 

I am confident that if we were to ban guns, there would still be mass shootings and there would still be gun crime. 

[Mic09]

7 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

There will be thousands of possible outcomes here, but ok, lets do a few.

Am I keeping the gun by my bed and ready to fire? Because if they are in the house already and threatening to kill me, they’re unlikely to let me pop down stairs and unlock the padlock on the steel gun case.

If the gun is available and ready to use, which is the more likely scenario: 1 a murderer breaks in and comes up the stairs shouting advance warning of his intentions, or 2, my teenage son manages to get hold of it after a bad day in school?

Look at my recent post, I think that using anecdotal evidence might be pointless (although I appreciate I got drawn into it myself).

[chrisp65]

3 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

I am confident that if we were to ban guns, there would still be mass shootings and there would still be gun crime. 

If only there was some way of comparing stats for gun crime in countries awash with guns and countries with less guns.

[villa4europe]

7 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

a) If someone breaks in, it's usually at night. If it's at night, you are in your bedroom which you could lock and reach for the safe to get the gun.

b) it's possible they would. There is plenty of firearm crime in the UK. 

There are many hypotheticals and assumptions in play here so using an anecdotal example might not prove effective. You might be right, but I could be right too. We just don't know. 

Again, I am not for owning guns, but knocking down the idea of owning a gun because there are mass shootings does not hold up. I just think that the issue is too complex to have a simple answer to, and I feel like some posters see the world in a very black and white light. 

I am confident that if we were to ban guns, there would still be mass shootings and there would still be gun crime. 

in your scenario they aren't just breaking in though which is a common crime, they are breaking in with the intent to hurt you, which isn't common at all

gun ownership escalates the level of danger dramatically for both the home owner and the intruder, making something bad happening more likely, a thief becomes an armed attacker

said before, I've been robbed in my home in the UK, didn't even know the guy had been there until about 1pm the next day

Edited September 4, 2019 by villa4europe

[Chindie]

6 minutes ago, Mic09 said:

I am confident that if we were to ban guns, there would still be mass shootings and there would still be gun crime. 

You can't uninvent the bomb. If you enacted gun laws in the US, people would still get shot and die. That isn't why people want gun laws, they don't think laws will magically make gun deaths vanish.

What they might do, though, is massively reduce them. Particularly the kind where someone goes to their local gun store and buys a 'hunting rifle' that could cull all the deer in the state in 5 seconds if they stood in a line, and then walks into a school and culls the kids instead. It would reduce the the instances of people flipping and going down in a 'blaze of glory', otherwise known as being a mass murderer.

[chrisp65]

Similar to @villa4europe my place was broken in to and they tried to take my power tools.

If I had a gun, where would I likely keep it? A utility room with metal cabinets, or ready to use next to my pillow. If I owned a gun and heard the break in, would I leave the gun or go investigating with the gun? Do I give them a chance to fire first?

Whole thing is based on an utterly false sense of your own superior thought and ability.

Or should I currently be going to bed with a machete under the pillow? just in case a rogue butcher breaks in loudly and slowly?

[Xela]

1 hour ago, colhint said:

Similar to a friend of mine. He was carjacked in South Africa. Got himself a gun. So much worry in the house, with kids around, he was more scared than without one. He got rid after a couple of months. Mind you I can understand someone in remote areas having one. But not automatic, no way.

I almost understand it in parts of South Africa.

Wild west out there. 

[Mic09]

8 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

If only there was some way of comparing stats for gun crime in countries awash with guns and countries with less guns.

Let's look at Switzerland in that case. Or Brazil. It might just prove that cultural differences and crime rate might play a part here.

Again, I am not for guns (and I feel like I have been bullied by numbers in this conversation!) and I agree that if we had less guns there would be less crime. 

I think that @Chindie is right in his latest post. 

But to discredit all arguments for guns or claiming that "getting rid of guns" will fix the problems is a very shortsighted tactic.