The Chairman Mao resembling, Monarchy hating, threat to Britain, Labour Party thread

[OutByEaster?]

Yep, this is a good issue for Starmer - it's a traditional Labour position, it's got massive public sympathy, it's working with the unions, it's supported in the press and importantly it's the right thing to do.

He's saying all the right things, he's bang on, so it's a decent test of how loudly he can get his voice heard. 

[bickster]

They should be linking Dorries' comments to the scandalous amounts of money spent on T&T and PPE contracts (most to their mates)

The disconnect between the two is astounding

Now is the time for Starmer to be ramming this home plus bringing in the other public sector workers already on a pay-freeze and on another one for the next year

[OutByEaster?]

2 minutes ago, bickster said:

They should be linking Dorries' comments to the scandalous amounts of money spent on T&T and PPE contracts (most to their mates)

The disconnect between the two is astounding

Now is the time for Starmer to be ramming this home plus bringing in the other public sector workers already on a pay-freeze and on another one for the next year

Absolutely this.

 

[blandy]

On 04/03/2021 at 20:47, HanoiVillan said:

Labour don't have either a clear argument about what the government have done wrong, or what they would be doing differently from here (and opposing a tax increase that voters were in favour of by a 7:1 margin isn't going to have helped), and the public perceive their criticisms to be opportunistic carping (correctly).

I think all 3 of those comments are wrong. I think Labour has frequently said the government has been to slow to act, which has been borne out by events. You’re right that people don’t like what can be seen as opportunistic carping and Labour has avoided doing that, limiting criticism to the needling obvious. They were also right on PPE and right on Track and Trace and cronyism, and I think the country knows that. I saw polls just before the budget that said between 95% of people and 60% did not agree that either tax raises or cuts to spending would be right to do in the budget. As I said the other day it depends on the way you ask the question and who you ask. Here’s one such giving 89% against:  https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1402736/rishi-sunak-news-budget-raise-taxes-poll-result-coronavirus-amazon-boris-johnson

Quote

The Chancellor is preparing for next week’s Spring Budget statement, with widespread speculation that he could raise Corporation Tax, as well as suggestions that he may also opt for an increase to VAT. Readers were asked: “Should Rishi Sunak raise taxes to help pay for Covid costs?” - and the answer was clear cut. Out of a total of 2,145 votes, 1,283 (60 percent) said the Chancellor should find other ways of raising revenue.Conversely, 834 (29 percent) said no, while just one percent were undecided.

Can’t find the other poll, think it was done for The Times. There was a more one too, where less than 50% said tax rises were the way to go.

you almost always always get a positive result for should someone else pay more ? and a negative one if the person thinks the question means should I pay more?

[HanoiVillan]

51 minutes ago, blandy said:

I think all 3 of those comments are wrong. I think Labour has frequently said the government has been to slow to act, which has been borne out by events. You’re right that people don’t like what can be seen as opportunistic carping and Labour has avoided doing that, limiting criticism to the needling obvious. They were also right on PPE and right on Track and Trace and cronyism, and I think the country knows that. I saw polls just before the budget that said between 95% of people and 60% did not agree that either tax raises or cuts to spending would be right to do in the budget. As I said the other day it depends on the way you ask the question and who you ask. Here’s one such giving 89% against:  https://www.express.co.uk/news/politics/1402736/rishi-sunak-news-budget-raise-taxes-poll-result-coronavirus-amazon-boris-johnson

Can’t find the other poll, think it was done for The Times. There was a more one too, where less than 50% said tax rises were the way to go.

you almost always always get a positive result for should someone else pay more ? and a negative one if the person thinks the question means should I pay more?

Okay, we're not going to agree and that's fine. But I completely disagree that they have avoided carping or that 'the country knows that', and the poll you've found at the end there prompts about VAT, which hasn't been raised and is much less popular for raises among the general public, for obvious reasons. 

[HanoiVillan]

1 hour ago, OutByEaster? said:

Yep, this is a good issue for Starmer - it's a traditional Labour position, it's got massive public sympathy, it's working with the unions, it's supported in the press and importantly it's the right thing to do.

He's saying all the right things, he's bang on, so it's a decent test of how loudly he can get his voice heard. 

A bit of a tangent, but I see this tweet is blowing up the Internet tonight:

I hover over the profile, and I see:

Another terrible Villa fan

Just add her to the list with Nick Timothy and Mervyn King I guess.

[blandy]

2 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

the poll you've found at the end there prompts about VAT, which hasn't been raised and is much less popular for raises among the general public, for obvious reasons. 

It wasn’t about VAT. It was about “Should Rishi Sunak raise taxes to help pay for Covid costs?”  That was the question. But whatever, different views, all good.

[darrenm]

2 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

A bit of a tangent, but I see this tweet is blowing up the Internet tonight:

I hover over the profile, and I see:

Another terrible Villa fan

Just add her to the list with Nick Timothy and Mervyn King I guess.

And David Camer..

Oh, actually he's a hammer.

[ChrisVillan]

Politics and prosecco. Attention-seeking alt-right provocateur in the making.

[Seat68]

I reckon its a @Jareth sock puppet account. 

[Xela]

While everyone is entitled to an opinion, some are best left unsaid!

It wouldn't have cost the Government a huge amount, compared to what they have spent so far, to give an above inflation pay-rise. 

Edited March 6, 2021 by Xela

[markavfc40]

There is actually a cause for Labour to get their teeth into here and a cause that you'd hope would garner favour with the public. The NHS workers pay rise is just a part of it but there is an associated bigger issue of integrating social care and funding it properly. It seems that can has once again been kicked into the long grass.

There is no doubt that those within the NHS, especially those nurses and doctors who have been on the front line this last year, are deserving of a decent pay rise well above 1% but arguably just as deserving are carers many of whom are on £8.72 an hour, or less than that if under 24, which is scandalous. There needs to be a sustained campaign to bring carers wages up to the level of a healthcare assistant and that will need to stem from social care funding being massively increased.

 

[chrisp65]

You would imagine this day and age there would be a way to identify how individual NHS staff have voted. Then they could just give a pay rise to the ones that voted tory.

That’s how everything works now, isn’t it?

 

[Ingram85]

Everyone saying we should be grateful for a pay rise forget we had a freeze for a decade in which we lost about 12% compared to inflation. We just had a ‘rise’ over 3 years by about 4% which still left us 8% behind. This proposed 1% will still leave us behind. All while we work in a slowly collapsing service at the mercy of Tory budget cuts, privatisation of departments, Tory closed services and Tory led brainwashing and the media not telling people the real facts of NHS pay. We haven’t had a rise for a decade, we are still catching up. 

Edited March 6, 2021 by Ingram85

[chrisp65]

2 hours ago, Ingram85 said:

Everyone saying we should be grateful for a pay rise forget we had a freeze for a decade in which we lost about 12% compared to inflation. We just had a ‘rise’ over 3 years by about 4% which still left us 8% behind. This proposed 1% will still leave us behind. All while we work in a slowly collapsing service at the mercy of Tory budget cuts, privatisation of departments, Tory closed services and Tory led brainwashing and the media not telling people the real facts of NHS pay. We haven’t had a rise for a decade, we are still catching up. 

There are two ways I can look at this.

Tory me: Well I haven’t had a pay rise either, except my job is not certain, it could be gone next Monday. I earn the same now as I did 10 years ago, if I get any pay rise this year it will be because I personally have persuaded the boss I am worth more money, at a time when he is being bombarded with people asking for work and offering to work for 50% of what I’m asking for. So why should my tax, pay for your pay rise? If you don’t like it, leave.

Actual me: Pay all NHS and public sector employees a decent respectable wage that will cause private employers to have to do the same. Now is the worst possible time to tell nurses they are getting a pay cut. Low paid people put their wages straight back in to the local economy. Thieving tory scum.

 

 

 

[Ingram85]

34 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

There are two ways I can look at this.

Tory me: Well I haven’t had a pay rise either, except my job is not certain, it could be gone next Monday. I earn the same now as I did 10 years ago, if I get any pay rise this year it will be because I personally have persuaded the boss I am worth more money, at a time when he is being bombarded with people asking for work and offering to work for 50% of what I’m asking for. So why should my tax, pay for your pay rise? If you don’t like it, leave.

Actual me: Pay all NHS and public sector employees a decent respectable wage that will cause private employers to have to do the same. Now is the worst possible time to tell nurses they are getting a pay cut. Low paid people put their wages straight back in to the local economy. Thieving tory scum.

 

 

 

The thing is, once you are at the top of your band the Nurses DO get paid a good wage, they get £2000 a month. £2300 if you do nights. It’s the HCA’s and other Band 3 or below staff that consistently get the shaft despite (certainly in my area of mental health) doing most of the work on the wards. We are the forgotten ones that aren’t as glamorous as the nurses and doctors. 
 

With regards to Private Sector work, it reminds me of people who complain about McDonalds employees fighting for a decent wage saying ‘I only get paid a little more why should burger flippers get the same as me’?!, well, there’s nothing stopping you fighting for a better wage for yourself as well. Surely that McD employees are fighting for a better wage should show you how crap your own wage is and how low your employers think of you. 

Maybe the Private sector need to unionise and fight. Shouldn’t stop nhs employees scrapping for a better quality of life. It’s what the powers that he want us all to do, fight for the scraps and tear each other apart oblivious while they feast on the riches in the ivory towers. 

They shouldn’t be angry with nhs workers demanding pay in line with the cost of living, they should be angry with the elite rewarding themselves self governed bonuses and pay rises at will. 

Edited March 6, 2021 by Ingram85

[chrisp65]

[blandy]

10 minutes ago, Ingram85 said:

Maybe the Private sector need to unionise and fight. Shouldn’t stop nhs employees scrapping for a better quality of life. It’s what the powers that he want us all to do, fight for the scraps and tear each other apart oblivious while they feast on the riches in the ivory towers. 

This, definitely. All of it.

Re the NHS pay "rise", the Government have said, in effect, "they should count themselves lucky, others in the public sector got nothing". I mean that's just bonkers - levelling down, not up. And the same applies to the private sector, as you say. Much of it non-Unionised, so the workers end up getting what they're given, if they're given anything and they better be grateful for it. And then private sector low wages are used as a lever for public sector low wages...and the cycle goes on whilst the big bosses reap their dividends, free shares, bonuses and executive pay that's hundreds of times higher.

The flip side, sort of, for those people lucky enough (and I'm one of them) to work for employers who do have Unionised work-forces and who aren't total gits, is that it shows what can happen. It should be the case that employers like the NHS are positive examples, with decent pay and conditions, decent work-life balance and good relationships between workers and management. From the outside it looks like the NHS staff get beasted because of a (positive) perception - that they/you are dedicated, caring people who don't want to strike, who won't strike and so on. But that has a really pernicious effect, people just leave, exhausted, leaving shortfalls in staff levels and even more overworked staff.

I also think this whole thing about "the best health system in the world" is counter productive. The staff may be mostly fantastic, but from the perspective of "users" it's rubbish. It isn't the best. It's the best "free at the point of use for everyone" system. But it's under funded, understaffed and consequently under-performs what it could be and should be. Other nations do it better in terms of delivering better health care - mostly because they're better resourced, whether via government, or insurance or a hybrid. The Tories are completely toxic for the NHS. No one who cares about it should ever vote tory.

[Davkaus]

An inflation matching payrise for all public sector workers that is directly mapped to the CPI seems the way to go, IMO.

Edited March 6, 2021 by Davkaus

[markavfc40]

This is the trouble with the UK now and has been for some time. Rather than wanting to see their neighbour get on too many people would rather they didn't for fear they may be getting a little more than them. 

I have always wondered why anyone with next to f all would vote Tory and I think there is maybe something in their psyche that means that they know under a Tory government those with f all won't be given a leg up  so if you have next to f all you can take some comfort that there is someone worse off than you.

The penny needs to drop that we need to be levelling up not down. That if your on £12 increasing the minimum wage to that level is a good thing and then helps in your fight to ask for more money if your job was deemed to be worthy of £3.30 more than minimum. That uplift in wages then trickles up. The opposite is happening though. Some private sector workers don't want to see those in the public sector get a decent, or at least inflation matching pay rise ,as they aren't getting one rather than thinking yes I'll support that as that then increases pressure on my employer to do the same.

In 2010 the Tories straight away started targeting those at the bottom planting the seed that those on benefits are living a great life, watching their 42" teles, smoking 40 fags a day, peaking out their curtains as you trot off to work to do your 9 hour day to pay their benefits. I wonder how those people who voted Tory feel now who have been unfortunate enough to lose their jobs and find themselves thrown on to benefits not fit for purpose. They were duped into removing their own safety net.

People in this country need to wake up as the Tories are playing us for fools whilst they, and their donors, are laughing all the way to the bank.

Edited March 6, 2021 by markavfc40