The Chairman Mao resembling, Monarchy hating, threat to Britain, Labour Party thread

[bickster]

6 hours ago, Demitri_C said:

I'm calling this out as well - "I was driving an Ambulance" gives the impression that this is some sort of emergency service, it isn't. The Little Flames Emergency Response Team is actually a YOUTH CLUB, where under 18's can gain a first aid qualification.  For Ambulance read minibus. For working alongside.... hospital, read they gave us some bandages and let us have a behind the scenes visit once a year

So what is happening here is that a youth club leader is attempting to break public property and local traffic regulations whilst he was driving a minibus, that he's parked illegally in order to commit these crimes. And was dumb enough to get someone to take photos and put them on Facebook

[HanoiVillan]

LOL

How did they get themselves into this mess? Like being against sunshine and apple pie.

[OutByEaster?]

I don't think Starmer is courting voters at the moment. I think he's looking for support in the corporate and media sectors whilst at the same time purging his own party, I think voters will come later. I think that's a big risk, both in terms of persuading voters and in terms of there being a later.

[darrenm]

Quite surprised this hasn't been posted yet. He had an open goal and chose to stop, turn around and kick it in his own net.

 

 

[icouldtelltheworld]

12 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

LOL

How did they get themselves into this mess? Like being against sunshine and apple pie.

It's incredible really when you think about it isn't it?

What he had to do really was adopt some of Corbyn's more popular policies, drop the pie in the sky ones and look and sound like a viable leader. How have the Tories managed to harness the desire for a more interventionist state better than Labour? Its a complete **** up

I've stuck with him thus far but he's lost me this week. There's no point in voting for a Labour party that positions itself economically to the right of the Tories. I'm officially politically homeless 

[Jareth]

I think Starmer's main problem is that he's allowed himself to be the front man of a commitee of New Labour figures and they are pulling the strings in a rather disjointed and out of date manner - it has all the hallmarks of a massive balls-up and it's quite painful to watch. Grow some balls Kier and steer your own ship.  

[darrenm]

10 minutes ago, icouldtelltheworld said:

adopt some of Corbyn's more popular policies, drop the pie in the sky ones and look and sound like a viable leader

Exactly. He already had the support of the vast majority of the left who were the ones who voted for him in a surprisingly mature act. They knew he wasn't Corbyn and would probably go further towards the centre but voted for him anyway.

"We did really well in 2017 but unfortunately not so well in 2019. Now I'd like to build on the energy of 2017 to fight climate change with a Green Industrial Revolution, take on the tax dodging huge multinationals with universal taxation and take some key infrastructure back into public hands"

All it needed.

[blandy]

12 hours ago, HanoiVillan said:

LOL

How did they get themselves into this mess? Like being against sunshine and apple pie.

Dear most of Industry and business. You know how you've seen profits plummet, costs stay at similar levels, but income drop off a precipice and you've had to make hundreds of thousands redundant - well what we've come up with is tax rises for you - what do you mean that would make things worse? Aren't you just crying out for another punch in the face?. 

[icouldtelltheworld]

38 minutes ago, Jareth said:

I think Starmer's main problem is that he's allowed himself to be the front man of a commitee of New Labour figures and they are pulling the strings in a rather disjointed and out of date manner - it has all the hallmarks of a massive balls-up and it's quite painful to watch. Grow some balls Kier and steer your own ship.  

Whilst this is undoubtedly true, I'm not even sure if this is the problem. New Labour had a plan and as a project it read the mood of the country well. I'm to the left, but its nonsense when people claim NL did nothing whilst in power (Iraq rightly overshadows those achievements, mind). 

Under Starmer I don't think there is any great strategic plan. I think someone said on here the other day that Labour are still fighting the 2010-2015 Tory party of Osborne and Cameron and that's the best way I've seen it summed up tbh. There's seemingly no vision of how to run the country, a complete lack of any ability to read the room and a doubling down on a Miliband style approach which aims to please everyone but actually offers the worst of all worlds and pisses everyone off.

Feeling very despondent about the state of UK politics at the moment.

[icouldtelltheworld]

22 minutes ago, blandy said:

Dear most of Industry and business. You know how you've seen profits plummet, costs stay at similar levels, but income drop off a precipice and you've had to make hundreds of thousands redundant - well what we've come up with is tax rises for you - what do you mean that would make things worse? Aren't you just crying out for another punch in the face?. 

It's a fair point, but the reality is that we have two options to deal with the double whammy of covid and brexit: increase tax revenue or return to austerity. Its really not a good look for the Labour Party to position itself as the party of austerity IMO - even if I can understand the logic behind the decision, this is going to really hurt Starmer moving forward I think

[blandy]

Just now, icouldtelltheworld said:

Under Starmer I don't think there is any great strategic plan. I think someone said on here the other day that Labour are still fighting the 2010-2015 Tory party of Osborne and Cameron and that's the best way I've seen it summed up tbh. There's seemingly no vision of how to run the country, a complete lack of any ability to read the room and a doubling down on a Miliband style approach which aims to please everyone but actually offers the worst of all worlds and pisses everyone off.

You could be right, I dunno. Alternatively (and I dunno on this either, but it's a kind of hope) Labour has come to its senses and instead of pandering to the latest fashionable issues on twitter and amongst a particular section of society, it is instead doing some grown up reflection on what is actually necessary to run a country which is fair(er) and (more) equitable. Essentially work out what it believes are the right actions for the current situation and (hopefully) propose or push those things, irrespective of this week's opinion polls. The corporation tax thing might be an example. Just because lots of people "want business to pay more" doesn't make it right, any more than lots of people wanting Capital punishment, or Brexit, or Immigration bans makes those things right. Of course in due course there needs to be changes to who pays what, and it should capture the predators like Amazon and so on, rather than high street stores, local manufacturers, and all the other native businesses that are massively struggling as it is.

An approach that isn't about identity politics, isn't about trends but is about practically and pragmatically how to make things better. And that can and should also include relentlessly highlighting how Tories make things worse in so many areas, and pointing out what can be different.

[OutByEaster?]

38 minutes ago, blandy said:

Dear most of Industry and business. You know how you've seen profits plummet, costs stay at similar levels, but income drop off a precipice and you've had to make hundreds of thousands redundant - well what we've come up with is tax rises for you - what do you mean that would make things worse? Aren't you just crying out for another punch in the face?. 

I get that and as said a little further back, I think that's his current plan; to get industry and media support and hope that he can get voters later with their help - but it's hard not to add the addendum to the above that reads:

Dear most of the British public. I know things are tough, unemployment has rocketed, you've not been allowed out and you've been living on reduced incomes but hey, business has suffered too and we're going to need you to pay for it, so tighten the old belt eh, there's a good chap.

I don't share his (apparent) confidence that voters are going to ignore that in the hope that he'll turn into someone nicer in a couple of years time because he's become friends with Murdoch and The Sun will tell them he's smashing.

If you add to that the effect it has on the idea of uniting the Labour party behind him, it's pretty clear that doing that is something he's given up  - that's going to be dangerous to him as an awful lot of the people he's moving away from are the same people that put him into his current position. 

 

[icouldtelltheworld]

2 minutes ago, blandy said:

You could be right, I dunno. Alternatively (and I dunno on this either, but it's a kind of hope) Labour has come to its senses and instead of pandering to the latest fashionable issues on twitter and amongst a particular section of society, it is instead doing some grown up reflection on what is actually necessary to run a country which is fair(er) and (more) equitable. Essentially work out what it believes are the right actions for the current situation and (hopefully) propose or push those things, irrespective of this week's opinion polls. 

Hopefully you're right and I'm wrong mate!

[blandy]

7 minutes ago, icouldtelltheworld said:

It's a fair point, but the reality is that we have two options to deal with the double whammy of covid and brexit: increase tax revenue or return to austerity.

We have more than that.

Firstly, even if you just have those two there's an issue of timing. It is not (IMO) a case of having to pick an option to be followed immediately. That's madness. Austerity was a buzzword to hide the more realistic actuality of "savage Tory ideological cuts". [please feel free to do a FFTY, anyone]

Anyway, the other thing is "tax revenue"  - it doesn't have to be the case that only existing taxes - e.g. income tax/corp tax/CGT/VAT etc.are available or should or could be used. Rebalancing who pays what, and based around which things is in need of serious re-adjustment. Pollution, social benefit/harm,  offshore squirreling and all kinds need to be addressed.

And then there's another leg - investment to grow the economy sustainably - whether that be in New technologies, the world's make-up post Covid, Green stuff, or more traditional stuff, if the economy grows tax revenue grows. The worst thing to do right now is to add to the punch from Brexit and from Covi by whacking businesses with a tax hike across the board, which will have the exact opposite effect to that which whatever percentage of polls say they want.

[blandy]

7 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

If you add to that the effect it has on the idea of uniting the Labour party behind him, it's pretty clear that doing that is something he's given up

Labour's effed IMO. It's not capable of uniting behind anyone. It's two parties in one - a Corbynite party and a left of centre party perpetually squabbling (at best).

[blandy]

5 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

Trickle down?

No. If I start a business selling gravy to discerning diners and employ a sump oil drainer to harvest my loveliness, or if I am I dunno, the NEC group and invest in another conference hall, or dining facilities or whatever then I create jobs and work and those people pay taxes and stop being unemployed. Or the Gov't supports on-shore wind or solar, or whatever - ditto. Trickle down was about "don't tax the rich so much and then they'll lspend their money on Rollers and Mercs and Rolexes and poor folk will benefit, so we don't need to give them income allowance" - a load of old rot, basically.

Edited February 26, 2021 by blandy
fat fingers

[Jareth]

Just now, blandy said:

Labour's effed IMO. It's not capable of uniting behind anyone. It's two parties in one - a Corbynite party and a left of centre party perpetually squabbling (at best).

10000000% - it needs to split and where possible agree to stand down candidates where a Tory can get in, preferably under a wider pact with the Lib Dems and Greens. Sounds like suicide but the current electorate still back the populist even after he fumbled 100k needless deaths, Labour cannot win the old fashioned way so it's time to try something new - doubt it will happen under New Labour 2.0 sadly, they are stuck in the past. 

[HanoiVillan]

45 minutes ago, blandy said:

Dear most of Industry and business. You know how you've seen profits plummet, costs stay at similar levels, but income drop off a precipice and you've had to make hundreds of thousands redundant - well what we've come up with is tax rises for you - what do you mean that would make things worse? Aren't you just crying out for another punch in the face?. 

You do know that corporation tax is a tax on profits, right? That it's not the same as business rates?

 

[The Fun Factory]

In the past 40 years Labour have been in power for 13 of them, and even then was a fairly moderate centre left (right?!) leaning. Britain is a very conservative country, which will only increase as the population ages. Only the post war period from up to about the mid 1970s have Labour ever looked the more dominant party in the UK.

Since the SPD/Labour split the progressive vote has been split which helps the tories. With the total collapse of labour votes in Scotland I just can't see Starmer getting anywhere close to a  majority if he is just relying on England and Wales. Outside the metropolitan cities and the few remaining red wall seats up north Labour is very weak in England. Boris will get off scot free from the pandemic because by 2024 most of this will be forgotten, and the tory press will say a vote for Labour is a vote for Scottish independence which was what happened in 2015 if people can remember that far back.

So basically Tory rule until the 2030s. Yay.

Edited February 26, 2021 by The Fun Factory

[OutByEaster?]

1 minute ago, blandy said:

Labour's effed IMO. It's not capable of uniting behind anyone. It's two parties in one - a Corbynite party and a left of centre party perpetually squabbling (at best).

I agree completely with the first half of that - it's become a party without a middle, a sort of donut with the far left on one edge and the centre-right on the other.

What's hurt I think is the sudden massive lurch from one side to the other, and particularly so since the left got behind Starmer in his appointment as leader, he now has half a party that are both alienated by his policies and feel betrayed by his previous portrayal as someone who shared their values.

Labours best hope of not being effed was a Starmer who maintained at least some of the traditional values of old Labour and he's cast them off like a cloak to reveal what appears to be moderate Conservatism instead. I think he's an opportunity lost.