Election Night 2015

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

How do Tory voters feel about the Snoopers' Charter, which is now back on the agenda?

 

Or is mass state surveillance and infringement on civil liberties only a bad thing if Labour do it?

[snowychap]

again though you've made a huge leap  on what Risso said and what you think he meant

Utter nonsense and you know it.

That's me done with this and with what you post, I'm afraid, Tony - at least until you take more interest in having a discussion rather than attempting to secure little 'wins'.

[tonyh29]

What do you think they will do Tony? 

 

I'm genuinely interested. We have what we have now and you seem like a pretty switched on bloke. 

you must be new here

 

Where are the £8bn of unfunded cuts going to come from? 

 

How are they going to stop the UKIP loonies and their own far right faction from destroying our relationship with the EU? 

 

Do do you think they can realistically achieve the mythical budget surplus, without massively cutting public services and putting more people into hardship?

 

I don't know there are £8bn of un-funded cuts , certain parts of the media have said they are but presumably at some point we will find out officially

 

I don't think they need worry about UKIP just now , remember UKIP was supposed to be going to wipe them out this time around and whilst they did get a big share of the vote , by and large Cameron saw them off even if it was with the help of Lib Dem voters .. the unexpected victory and the referendum should keep his party happy for now , the fun begins when Cameron lobbies to stay in the EU  (as he will) and the Tory party may then start to implode around 2016 /2017 ... coupled with cameron saying he wouldn't run a third term the referendum may even be his swansong if the Euro sceptic part of the party is that big

[snowychap]

I find it ironic that the word "ignorant" was used earlier on to describe Tory voters and all the "evil" things that the Tory's do, yet a large number of the same people give £6 a day to fund the most vile organisations on earth, who basically destroy lives, destory families, use child labour and bully whole countries into not allowing legislation to educate people on smoking. Your £6 a day is a actually a vote towards the ills of the world, rather than an opinion on what might possibly happen.

Sorry but is that a diatribe against smokers or critics of the Tories or a bizarre conflation of the two?

[PaulC]

 

 

My last work call of the day was to a good customer of mine, who voted Tory. 

 

He's just said (quote almost verbatim); 

 

"I never thought they would get an actual majority. I'm a supporter and even I don't think they should be let loose on their own. If I had known, I wouldn't have voted"! 

 

I asked him why he did and he said he thought it was the best way to ensure another coalition and stop the SNP

 

How many more might be feeling the tinge of regret today? Whatever the number, it will be a lot higher in a year or two! 

 

what a crap reason for voting Conservative.

 

I know, he should have voted Tory becasue they are clearly the best and most capabale party of running the country

 

 

Well thats a better reason for voting for a party than the other one

[wazzap24]

 

My last work call of the day was to a good customer of mine, who voted Tory. 

 

He's just said (quote almost verbatim); 

 

"I never thought they would get an actual majority. I'm a supporter and even I don't think they should be let loose on their own. If I had known, I wouldn't have voted"! 

 

I asked him why he did and he said he thought it was the best way to ensure another coalition and stop the SNP

 

How many more might be feeling the tinge of regret today? Whatever the number, it will be a lot higher in a year or two! 

He's just being humble and didn't want to rub your face in it  .. inside he's probably already deciding if tonights baby should be fried or BBQ'd

 

 

He boils them alive like fresh Lobster. He likes to hear the scream, reckons it adds to the flavour 

[tonyh29]

 

again though you've made a huge leap  on what Risso said and what you think he meant

Utter nonsense and you know it.

That's me done with this and with what you post, I'm afraid, Tony - at least until you take more interest in having a discussion rather than attempting to secure little 'wins'.

 

 

 

little wins ... you're not Birmingham City and I'm not Aston Villa  ... you jump on peoples posts I think that entitles people to respond , if you don't like it then maybe change your posting style ?

 

 

Late Edit to correct the grammar error on Your

Edited May 8, 2015 by tonyh29

[tonyh29]

How do Tory voters feel about the Snoopers' Charter, which is now back on the agenda?

 

Or is mass state surveillance and infringement on civil liberties only a bad thing if Labour do it?

 

oh the irony of that question in this thread

 

but to answer the question  , it's a terrible policy and if needs be people should be taking to the streets to prevent it

[andyjsg]

 

I find it ironic that the word "ignorant" was used earlier on to describe Tory voters and all the "evil" things that the Tory's do, yet a large number of the same people give £6 a day to fund the most vile organisations on earth, who basically destroy lives, destory families, use child labour and bully whole countries into not allowing legislation to educate people on smoking. Your £6 a day is a actually a vote towards the ills of the world, rather than an opinion on what might possibly happen.

Sorry but is that a diatribe against smokers or critics of the Tories or a bizarre conflation of the two?

 

Yet everything Im saying is true. - Its just not right when it doesnt suit you eh?

 

Just for clarity:

 

Child Labour - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-27350413

Ridiculous Lawsuits - http://www.copyright.org.au/news-and-policy/details/id/2163/

Edited May 8, 2015 by andyjsg

[wazzap24]

 

 

My last work call of the day was to a good customer of mine, who voted Tory. 

 

He's just said (quote almost verbatim); 

 

"I never thought they would get an actual majority. I'm a supporter and even I don't think they should be let loose on their own. If I had known, I wouldn't have voted"! 

 

I asked him why he did and he said he thought it was the best way to ensure another coalition and stop the SNP

 

How many more might be feeling the tinge of regret today? Whatever the number, it will be a lot higher in a year or two! 

 

what a crap reason for voting Conservative.

 

I know, he should have voted Tory becasue they are clearly the best and most capabale party of running the country

 

 

I've got massive respect for anyone who voted for them because they believe that. 

 

Ive just got a feeling there are a lot who voted for the 'wrong' reason/s - like my man in question. 

[PaulC]

 

 

 

 

 

a 2010 study had smoking treatment costs roughly at £13.74 bn ( not accounting for costs that cant necessarily be measured)

Apparently not.

The £13.74bn figure is the estimated 'cost to society' according to this page on the NICE website.

3. Treating smoking-related illnesses cost the NHS an estimated £2.7 billion in 2006 (Callum et al. 2010). The overall financial burden of all smoking to society has been estimated at £13.74 billion a year. This includes both NHS costs and loss of productivity because of illness and early death, as well as other factors (Nash and Featherstone 2010).

Any costs to the NHS in treatment of smoking related illnesses is heavily outweighed by tax revenue on cigarettes. In any case it saves on pensions and Welfare because smokers average life span is shorter.

Doesnt matter how many times this is written, its not true.

 

 

You can only guess at overall costs to the NHS but the facts are there with taxes on Tobacco, so its very very true. If it knocks 10 years on average off people's lives think of the savings on state pensions. 

 

 

But the money on tax is going back into general tax not just the NHS, so covers costs to try and educate on smoking (wasted because people ignore it), loss of business due to illness, benefits to people or families who can no longer work due to illness...need I go on?

 

I find it ironic that the word "ignorant" was used earlier on to describe Tory voters and all the "evil" things that the Tory's do, yet a large number of the same people give £6 a day to fund the most vile organisations on earth, who basically destroy lives, destory families, use child labour and bully whole countries into not allowing legislation to educate people on smoking. Your £6 a day is a actually a vote towards the ills of the world, rather than an opinion on what might possibly happen.

 

 

Makes no difference how the govt choose to spend the money its revenue so I don't understand the argument about smokers costing the NHS so much, as without the taxes on smoking then there would be less for the NHS and it would probably be totally bust by now. 

 

I think smoking is dumb but the tobacco companies are evil by making these things so addictive so I don't blame the smokers. My mother in law died from lung cancer at 67. I think she only used the NHS in the last year of her life and so the money she put in and saved from not collecting state pensions for 10 years or more heavily outweighed what it cost the NHS.

[PompeyVillan]

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/comment/scrap-the-human-rights-act-and-keep-ttip-heres-what-you-voted-for-and-will-get-with-a-tory-government-britain-10235374.html

Scrap the Human Rights Act and keep TTIP: Here's what you voted for and will get with a Tory government, Britain

Without the steadying hand of the Lib Dems, inequality will increase

By LEE WILLIAMS

Friday 08 May 2015

I never thought I’d say a Tory victory feels like Christmas, but it really does. It’s just that we, the electorate, are the turkeys.

No doubt we’ll get what we voted for – five more years of the same, with a little bit more thrown on top. So let’s just remind ourselves what that’s going to look like.

First of all there’s that little matter of £12bn worth of cuts to the welfare system which the Conservatives have kept, wisely, under their hats. This will hit hardest the people who can least afford it – the poor, the disabled, the disadvantaged. The death toll due to welfare cuts will continue to mount. But never mind, hey? At least unemployment will continue to fall as more poor people are forced into unfair and inadequate contracts. In turn the number of food banks will continue to rise – already up from 56 to 445 under the Tories – as they desperately try to keep up with spiralling poverty.

Inequality will increase as the Tories, without the steadying hand of the Lib Dems, will pursue their policy of tax breaks for the rich and cuts to the poor, even more rampantly now. But that’s okay, because this is trickle-down economics where we all feel the benefits of the top 1 per cent getting richer, right?

We will see the continuing creeping privatisation of our health and education systems with more state-owned schools sold off as academies. The NHS will continue its slow death by a thousand cuts as one-by-one its parts are auctioned off to private businesses. But hey, it’ll still be free at the point of use.

Cuts will continue to fall heavily on local councils and public services like the police, fire and prison services, which are already stretched dangerously thin. But that’s okay because we can hand over large parts of their responsibility to private companies like the security firm G4S, which will be nice. And at least we won’t have to pay more taxes… probably.

We’ll get a referendum on Europe so we can continue to pull up the drawbridge on the rest of the world and also free ourselves of all that ridiculous EU meddling – like the Human Rights Act, which the Tories want to scrap. Won’t it be good to be free of all that tedious bureaucracy? Although we might keep the good bits, like TTIP, which will hand over swathes of our national sovereignty to multi-national corporations. But that’s okay because foreigners are alright as long as they’re big businesses; it’s only the poor ones we don’t like.

More power to big corporations and business as usual for the banks will be the watchwords. Because, hey, if we’re too unfair on them, they’ll all leave the country and that would be the equivalent to Armageddon, right… right?

Perhaps worst of all, we have seen a premature end to the brief flowering of plurality in our politics and the first steps towards greater democracy. With the coalition government we at least had the Lib Dems holding the Tories back from their more rampantly unfair policies. Now they have free rein and a far right able to exert more pressure with the threat of defection to an increasingly popular – but unfairly represented – Ukip.

It seems our brief flirtation with multi-party politics, which galvanised so many more people to vote, is now over. But that’s okay, now we will have a strong hand on the tiller, right? Things will get done, right? Yes indeed, things will get done – see above.

So anyway, Merry Christmas everyone! There’s a great big carve up coming our way! I might start basting myself now…

Rather over dramatic

We can only hope.

[Ingram85]

The money that benefit fraud costs the state is absolutely minuscule in the grand scheme of things, but it is a very effective political weapon designed to turn middle class against poorer class, and distract from who the middle class should be angry with, the people who actually affect what they earn. As I've said before, you think because you wear a shirt and tie, and the richest of the rich wear a shirt and tie, you're like them, when in fact your income is far closer to that of the woman who goes around in her pyjamas all day. And you say that's because the woman in the pyjamas earns too much. No, it's because you earn too little because the man you consider your peer, even though his income vastly eclipses yours, earns too much. You are poor too, you just work harder to be poor and get angry at other poor people who don't work as hard, when you should be angrier at those that earn so much. You live near the breadline. The poor person lives below the breadline. The rich person can't see the breadline. The problem is with your income being so close to the breadline, when it needn't be if things were a bit more fair. If you were earning more, you wouldn't give a shit what the poor earned, or about immigration. And as an aside, it's worth remembering that the more money the poor have, the better the economy of a country does, because there's a lot of them and they spend their money, while the rich don't spend their money, so the economy stays small. No VAT, no tax paid by small businesses where they poor might spend their money, no staff required where the poor spend their money, no income tax paid by that staff, that staff then being off the dole as a benefit to the state, and then also having more money to spend in local businesses, and so on. More tax for the NHS and better quality of life all round. We should be throwing money at the poor. And yet they're still thought of as the bad guys. Technology has made so many jobs irrelevant, and capitalism has meant that the money saved by those jobs being made obsolete is filtered all the way to the richest. In business, no decision was ever made that benefitted the take home pay of the employees below the rank of where the decision was made, and so money has been getting sucked to the top for decades. If technology had been used to benefit all, everyone would work a lot fewer hours every week, and have a lot more leisure time, but instead, the benefit of the technology was all sent to the richest in society, and just made everyone towards the bottom much worse off.

Yillan, I don't always agree or get on with you but **** me if that isn't one of the best posts I've ever read on VT.

Well said.

[PompeyVillan]

To conclude, I'm down hearted, but convinced the Tories will implode before the next election. And I won't let them off the hook.

[blandy]

Does this mean that things really are going to be as bad as everyone is making out, or is there just a lot of overreacting? Genuine question.

I wouldn't take that much notice, in general the left are more vociferous in expressing their views, hence why nobody really saw this result coming as the majority was largely silent. I'm sure most of the people are content with the way they voted, otherwise they wouldn't have voted, and are willing to wait and see what happens. I find the worst scenarios that people have come up with as being very unlikely and is mostly based upon deep-rooted prejudices against the Tories.

I think that's mostly wrong, sharky. If you look at different Newspaper websites, you'll see plenty of very vociferous views from people on the right.

Also on here, there are perhaps more lefty types, but then again most of the posters are from parts of the country that vote more left than right.

The reason IMO people didn't see the result coming was that all the polls up to last night said it would be very different - the polls were wrong.

As for what happens next, well the tories have promised there will be massive cuts (but not where). They've promised a EU in-out referendum, and you can look at what's happened the last 5 years and get a flavour of what's to come.

Immigration was increased, jobs increased, living standards fell, the NHS was under massive strain, the judicial system is a mess, teachers and schools up in arms, more state surveillance, some reduction of the running deficit, and increase in National debt, the rich got massively more rich and the poor got poorer. Those are all facts, rather than opinion.

Then there's fracking, and the erosion of civil rights and the suppression of protest.

They might be chuffed they've squeaked a majority right now, but I suspect there will be a lot if disruption in due course. The EU referendum in particular is going to be a major problem, as will the the way the country has divided up - the South is Blue (except inner city London) the North is Red, and Scotland is SNP yellow, when you look at the election Maps. So it's like 3 different nations, really, rather than a multicolour mix.

[Awol]

the old eurosceptics crawling out of the woodwork.

 

just what we need - two years of old white men telling us how it is.

Oh noes, white men! Haven't they been banned yet?  

 

You call UKIP voters racist then come out with blatant racist shite like that. 

[mjmooney]

They are due a banana skin/major scandal. Let's hope it's a biggie, and that Labour have a savvy leader and their act together when it happens.

Edited May 8, 2015 by mjmooney

[andyjsg]

Makes no difference how the govt choose to spend the money its revenue so I don't understand the argument about smokers costing the NHS so much, as without the taxes on smoking then there would be less for the NHS and it would probably be totally bust by now. 

 

I think smoking is dumb but the tobacco companies are evil by making these things so addictive so I don't blame the smokers. My mother in law died from lung cancer at 67. I think she only used the NHS in the last year of her life and so the money she put in and saved from not collecting state pensions for 10 years or more heavily outweighed what it cost the NHS.

 

But thats my point, it isnt like for like - the NHS dont get their costs back if the money is "lost" elsewhere in the economy due to smoking - Im talking about this sort of thing http://www.york.ac.uk/healthsciences/news-and-events/news/2012/smoking-economy/

 

My original point is the NHS is under pressure due to people not looking after themselves properly, obesity is more of an issue than smoking nowadays yet takeaways are doing better than ever.

 

People are throwing their toys out the pram due to the Tory government but should be looking elsewhere (or themselves) at where some of the real issues lie to direct their anger - but that wouldnt be convenient....

[snowychap]

Yet everything Im saying is true. - Its just not right when it doesnt suit you eh?

What on earth are you on about?

What doesn't suit me and is therefore, apparently, not right?

You just seemed to post a rant about smoking - fair enough - but within the same rant started ranting about critics of the Tories and it all ended up as some sort of big mess.

Don't Tories smoke or summat?

 

p.s. Isn't Ken Clarke still on the board of BAT?

[blandy]

 

..Where are the £8bn of unfunded cuts going to come from?

I don't know there are £8bn of un-funded cuts , certain parts of the media have said they are but presumably at some point we will find out officially...

 

The IFS looked at al the manifestos and said (pdf)

 

• Since the Conservatives’ plans imply the greatest reduction in borrowing, they have the greatest job to do in terms of setting out how they would achieve this. Despite this, their detailed tax policies are a net giveaway of 0.1% of national income, their detailed social security measures would only provide a tenth of the cuts that they have said they want to deliver, and their commitments on aid, the NHS and schools would (relative to a real freeze) increase spending on these areas by 0.3% of national income.

• The Conservatives have squared this circle with an aspiration to raise 0.2% of national income (around £5 billion) from clamping down on tax avoidance, unspecified further cuts to benefits amounting to 0.5% of national income (about £10 billion) and a further real-terms cut to ‘unprotected’ departmental spending of £30 billion that was not mentioned in their manifesto. So the Conservatives need to spell out substantially more detail of how they will deliver the overall fiscal targets they have set themselves.

• Under the Conservatives’ plans, and assuming they find the social security cuts and revenues from tax avoidance that they have targeted, total departmental spending would need to be cut by 7.1% between 2014-15 and 2018-19. This would be a slightly slower rate of cuts than over the previous parliament (an average cut of 1.8% per year compared with 2.4% per year between 2010-11 and 2014-15). Departmental spending would fall to its lowest level in real terms since 2003-04. Outside of aid, the NHS and education (which have been promised various levels of protection by the Conservatives), other departmental spending looks to be facing cuts of 17.9% between 2014-15 and 2018-19. This would be on top of the 18.1% cut experienced between 2010-11 and 2014-15, leading to a cumulative cut over the whole period from 2010-11 to 2018-19 of 32.8%). These ‘unprotected’ areas include defence, transport, law and order, and social care.