peterms Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Just read through this thread from page 1, and it's a very odd experience. Some very good posts from Blandy, Bickster, Mike McKenna, Oaks, LondonLax among others. Others which throw some light on how the lies of the police can have stood for so long - the readiness to believe bad things about a demonised sub-group, even while being a member of that sub-group (football supporters who attend games), in the face of all evidence to the contrary. The lack of critical thought. The ease with which shallow stereotypes displace reason and evidence. Worrying stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voinjama Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 I have gone through and read the whole thread again. Some interesting views. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Pangloss Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 It's quite shocking and shameful that some posters here, despite the now proven cover up by the police, cannot simply acknowledge the appalling wrongs done on the day. If you haven't read the report, I suggest you read the parts which refer to the fact that up to 40 people's lives could potentially have been saved had the police and emergency services acted sooner. As now, the vast majority of fans were responsible and hooligans were in the significant minority. But the police & football authorities treated us like cattle. Anyone who followed Villa in the 70's & 80's will know this tragedy could have befallen our own or any of the major clubs. I often attended major games where the crush of fans from behind was at times terrifying. Major games were invariably poorly policed and the physical safety of fans was secondary. A number of stadiums were effectively death traps and it is nothing short of amazing that other disasters didn't result from overcrowding and often irresponsible policing. The families of the fans that died deserve our respect for their tenacity and courage. I sincerely hope that the individuals who lied & covered up their incompetence are brought to justice. As for individuals such as Kelvin McKenzie and Boris Johnson and media such as the Sun newspaper all right thinking football fans should treat them with absolute contempt. It could have easily have been us and ours! Brilliant post, I agree 100%, this thread has shown that there are some real category 5 morons on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voinjama Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 ''Well this is more chance for the Liverpool haters on the site to have another go''. That comment above is what I said on page 1, if you go back to page 1 you can see it. I always believe you can not make a judgement on a situation until you know the facts. I honestly believe SOME (not all) people on this site have a problem with Liverpool football club and its fans and this has clouded their opinion with regards to the Hillsborough incident. If it was for example 96 Southampton fans who had been killed, the comments would not of been the same. Anyway I am glad the truth is out and some people need to eat some humble pie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted September 12, 2012 Moderator Share Posted September 12, 2012 I couldn't think of a theory, outside of creationism, that I could subscribe to less than this. Official endorsement of a point of entry to the ground? I know a lot of people blame the police entirely for the events of that day, but if those police were not trying to stop people flooding through those gates on that fateful day, a fruitless protest which we can only assume was completely ignored by the ticketless fans involved, I would eat my own cock. Anyone care to pass him some salt and vinegar to make his cock taste a little more palatable? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voinjama Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 They say they want justice, yet they aren't so interested in justice for the Juventus fans who died in Belgium. What they want is someone to blame, someone to point the finger at rather than accept their own hand in events that day. Yes the police made mistakes, no question. Would they have made those mistakes though if not for the actions of some Liverpool fans? No. Liverpool fans had a history of doing what they did at Hillsborough that day and were reported to have done similar at the CL final a few years ago. Yet they continue to act like their actions that day had no impact on events when I think just about everyone else is capable of seeing the truth. Sadly we saw only recently with the Evra incidents that Liverpool fans are incapable of independent thought, unable or unwilling to depart from the party line and incapable of admitting that anyone associated with their club could ever be at fault. Excellent post Trent, the only thing I can add to it, is that they're all words removed! Is it still an excellent post? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 I couldn't think of a theory, outside of creationism, that I could subscribe to less than this. Official endorsement of a point of entry to the ground? I know a lot of people blame the police entirely for the events of that day, but if those police were not trying to stop people flooding through those gates on that fateful day, a fruitless protest which we can only assume was completely ignored by the ticketless fans involved, I would eat my own cock. Anyone care to pass him some salt and vinegar to make his cock taste a little more palatable? Come on, that's ridiculous. A bit of salt and vinegar won't do the job. We're talking about an aged, gristly organ. I assume - I have no direct personal knowledge of his cock, let me stress. It will need slow, gentle cooking to make it digestible, let alone palatable. I would suggest blanching it at least twice to begin with. Plunge it into boiling water for a couple of minutes, then refresh in a bowl of iced water. Repeat. Dab it dry with a kitchen towel, then saute in a little oil and butter on a medium heat, turning regularly. When lightly browned, remove, turn the heat down to low, and add some chopped onions and garlic. Saute gently until translucent, add a splash of white wine, deglaze, season, add a couple of bay leaves, maybe a chopped tomato and some chilli flakes, return the nicely browned cock to the pan, cover with a tight fitting lid, and simmer gently for 20-30 mins while you prepare the accompaniment. If he's going to eat his own cock, at least let it be prepared correctly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
privateer Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 I guess that when scousers stop turning up in large, ticketless numbers for major football matches, then they will be really blameless. The largest burden of blame should fall on the authorities, F.A., police, safety officials who were responsible for the venue, and the disaster mismanagement at the time. The only people 100% blameless were the victims. **** hell! What a day! the trees is back - welcome back and don't go again. Even more amazingly, drat has made a post I actually agree with. First. Time. Ever. Then he went and did it again. ****, I can't handle this shit! Oh yes, Boris was correct in his assessment. The good news today is that the Thames Estuary Airport visualisation has been published and it looks really cool. The Boris Johnson International Airport. I like the sound of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PeteSoutherner Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 For me this changes nothing, they are still murderers, RIP Heysal Justice for the 39 Oh f@@k off. I read more than post but that post is just a crass, stupid and an idiotic thing to say. To dismiss a tragic event because of another is childish and cruel. Liverpool fans died. 96 of them. Because we (football fans) were dehumanised, labelled as trouble makers and treated like shit. At every point the authorities (Police) could have prevented death. How, not limit thousands to a handful of entry points. Put man power in place to police and keep the crowd from creating a swell outside the ground. Close off the most obvious route into the terrace- and because of the failings of outside crowd control- most would be rushing into that tunnel to get a good spot to watch the match. Remember, they did not know they were heading towards an overcrowded pen. Once the Police saw the tradegy on CCTV and first hand they should have acted to limit the tragedy. They did not. It was then not a time to cover their own mistakes, but to admit them, and try to serve and protect, that is what they are employed to do. Instead they questioed football fans, who had lost family members and friends, like they were suspects. In their panic, they put the blame onto the victim. Any Villa fan who went to games back in the day and are as old as I am (mid 40s) will know that it could have been us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oaks Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 I really have no idea what these Liverpool fans will get out of this other than another scapegoat. There were many reasons for this horrific event. A perfect storm of fuckups from there being fans caged in like animals to a gate being opened because to many fans had turned up late and trying to get in without tickets. Now Liverpool fans almost take great plesure in blameing the government and the police, but react in a different way to suggestions that them fans were any way to blame. How does that saying go...Liverpool FC: Outraged by everything, ashamed of nothing. I am truly embarresed by this post now. It shows how little knowledge someone can have to have an opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 There are some truly unbelievable comments in this thread. The fact that there has been a cover up by the authorities for over 20 years is nothing short of a national disgrace, and any football fan making negative comments about the Liverpool supporters is well and truly out of order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drat01 Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 There are some truly unbelievable comments in this thread. The fact that there has been a cover up by the authorities for over 20 years is nothing short of a national disgrace, and any football fan making negative comments about the Liverpool supporters is well and truly out of order. Thing is though those are two different things. The cover ups, degradation of duty, lies by politicians etc should not stop people questioning why the attitudes were like that in the day and to some extent now to football fans. This morning I have heard some sill statements regarding people being drunk for instance. It's a lie, (not of the magnitude that some have made I wonder when Boris will apologize?) to say that NO Liverpool fans were drunk that day and I would bet that a lot were. BUT as said I would have expected that many Forest fans were also, and likewise Norwich and Everton fans at their semi final. The point is that football matches and especially big ones creates an atmosphere where a lot of booze is drunk. The sad reality of that and where we were with fan behavior at that time, is that things dont get done in an orderly fashion, people would not step back and say I will wait a few mins for things to clear. The reality is that at the time due to awful conditions caused by various groups of people, the Gvmt of the day, the police ability to react and manage, the FA and its total disregard for fans then and others caused a situation that resulted in many people being killed. Liverpool fans at the time were no nice bunch of scallys, nor were a lot of fans if we are honest. That is not saying they were to blame but there is a danger that the picture of what a fan was like then will be tainted to give a false picture. Football then was a death trap, and unfortunately it went off far too many times before anything positive happened. 1. What caused the deaths 2. The aftermath 2 things that are not the same and need to be reviewed and acted on to ensure that they never occur or get anywhere near happening again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Because we (football fans) were dehumanised, labelled as trouble makers and treated like shit. Nail on the head ... The thing was in those days , we'd all been to football matches and seen drunk fans and trouble so it wasn't hard to believe the press reports we were reading ...... this was pre internet days before you could do your own digging and watch 10,000 grainy images of mobile phone footage It's easy to criticise people that have made statements that now look crass , but those statements were made based on the evidence presented to them ... The released documents vindicate the 96 victims , they don't necessarily vindicate every football fan that has been involved in an incident previously Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qwpzxjor1 Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 I always believe you can not make a judgement on a situation until you know the facts. I honestly believe SOME (not all) people on this site have a problem with Liverpool football club and its fans and this has clouded their opinion with regards to the Hillsborough incident. If it was for example 96 Southampton fans who had been killed, the comments would not of been the same. Anyway I am glad the truth is out and some people need to eat some humble pie. Just to clarify here... myself, and others such as The Rev, were not getting involved in the whole 'it was Liverpool fans fault, it was the polices fault, etc..' argument. The point we were making was that this campaign, and this new evidence really does change nothing. Those people are still dead. The lessons had already been learnt and it was not going to happen again regardless of this. Yes, the revelation that the police covered it up more than we all expected is a crucial element, but it still doesn't matter. Yes, more could have been saved on the day, but the issue was with there being no plans in place for such eventuality and no-one knowing what to do. It's a much bigger issue than one ground, one set of fans. It was a national failing. I still believe that Hillsborough, as tragic as it was, was a major turning point in the safety of football fans and the experience of going to games. But I also still believe that nothing more can be learned from it. The only thing that can come from this is that a witchhunt begins for individuals, and 96 deaths will become 97. Hillsborough needs to be dropped. Not forgotten, obviously, but we need to move on, and be thankful that football games are now somewhere anyone can go to safely, take family, and enjoy a day out. Hillsborough was always going to happen, it was a major flaw in the way football games were policed and managed at the time. If it didn't happen to Liverpool fans at Sheffield, it would have happened to another club somewhere else. Different set of fans, different set of police, different stadium.. it would still have happened. The failing was with the entire set up of stadium and crowd management, and that has been fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Yes, the revelation that the police covered it up more than we all expected is a crucial element, but it still doesn't matter. Really? Could it not be reasonable to suspect that some of those officers (not it seems the ones on the ground but the ones higher up) have continued in that vein throughout their careers? Say, for example, one of those senior policemen was in charge of dealing with domestic extremism (which may well include a number of sub groups of people whom it may be easy and expedient - to some - to demonize); should this not be a worry? Yer man from the South Yorkshire Police was telling us yesterday how different a force the police is today than it was in 1989; then again, they were telling us in the 80s how different a force it was from the 'accidentally falling down the stairs' force of the 50s, 60s and 70s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeMcKenna Posted September 13, 2012 VT Supporter Share Posted September 13, 2012 Yes, the revelation that the police covered it up more than we all expected is a crucial element, but it still doesn't matter. Yes, more could have been saved on the day, but the issue was with there being no plans in place for such eventuality and no-one knowing what to do. It's a much bigger issue than one ground, one set of fans. It was a national failing. I still believe that Hillsborough, as tragic as it was, was a major turning point in the safety of football fans and the experience of going to games. But I also still believe that nothing more can be learned from it. The only thing that can come from this is that a witchhunt begins for individuals, and 96 deaths will become 97. Hillsborough needs to be dropped. You are completely and utterly wrong... I am amazed that you think seeking justice for 96 dead fans can be defined as a witch hunt. I am amazed & disgusted that you think that "that the police covered it up more than we all expected is a crucial element, but it still doesn't matter." I am amazed that you think "nothing can be learned" from the lies and the cover up. I am amazed that you think such a position is tenable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Yes, the revelation that the police covered it up more than we all expected is a crucial element, but it still doesn't matter. Really? Could it not be reasonable to suspect that some of those officers (not it seems the ones on the ground but the ones higher up) have continued in that vein throughout their careers? Say, for example, one of those senior policemen was in charge of dealing with domestic extremism (which may well include a number of sub groups of people whom it may be easy and expedient - to some - to demonize); should this not be a worry? Yer man from the South Yorkshire Police was telling us yesterday how different a force the police is today than it was in 1989; then again, they were telling us in the 80s how different a force it was from the 'accidentally falling down the stairs' force of the 50s, 60s and 70s. Maybe they could gave a second look at the 'falling down the stairs and dying' cases of the 90s, 00s and 10s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qwpzxjor1 Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 stuff I am amazed that you think all that stuff I am amazed that you think such a position is tenable. Be amazed then. We'll just have to disagree. Frankly, I'm not amazing by the 'revelation' that police in the 80s did some naughty stuff. "The suspect fell down the stairs and died". Yeah, that one. We all knew this went on, and again the world has moved on; numerous police investigations have cleared up this behaviour. We're just going over old ground now, we're never going to agree so I'll just leave you guys to continue arguing amongst yourselves. I'll come back into this thread and eat humble pie if something comes about from all this which impacts the state of policing and crowd control in the future. Until then, I bid you adieu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drat01 Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Splitting the two sides of the discussion here - the quality, safety and organization at grounds post-Hillsborough is now vastly improved and none can really argue that isnt the case. Still not perfect but a whole lot better. (Note: some using this now as a call for return of standing areas I don't understand how that logic works) Secondly people talking about "justice". What exactly do they want? Money - interesting how the lawyers are now all over things so it seems, I would imagine the court case for those directly and indirectly affected will start to flow through for compensation etc if they get their way. What crimes need to be investigated here? Are people like the Sun editor the Tory MP who lied to be investigated and charged. What levels within the police and Emergency services need to be investigated for failing to do their job? Does the amendment of statements post the event need subject to criminal investigation and to what level will people be charged. Should the FA be charged as being culpable in all of this? What about the Gvmt of the time who insisted on the pens being put in place and lax safety regulations? A call for justice is great, but justice on what and what are the expectations, deliverable s here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 A call for justice is great, but justice on what and what are the expectations, deliverable s here? If a family member of yours died, and the circumstances behind that death were covered up and lied about, what would you consider to be justice? I would say police deliberately altering evidence is an extremely serious offence at the very least, and should be pursued vigorously to the fullest extent possible. I also think the suggestion that this might be about money for the victims is extremely distasteful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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