dAVe80 Posted September 10, 2012 Share Posted September 10, 2012 It really does boggle my mind that fellow football fans can disregard overwhelming evidence, and let their prejudices cloud their judgment. On some things, I'd like to think we as football fans, the same as those at Hillsborough that day, can support each other on matters like these. It could have been us that day. It could have been any set of fans. Mention Liverpool though, and the negative connotations, and past reputations start to surface. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seat68 Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 so liverpool fans waited patiently outside the gate then bickster? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 so liverpool fans waited patiently outside the gate then bickster? Another one who completely misses the point... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seat68 Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 did they or didnt they? because people disagree, we miss the point or ill informed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBear Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 Can you not wait a day for the documents to be released? Maybe then you'll get your answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted September 11, 2012 Moderator Share Posted September 11, 2012 Not long after Hillsborough, it became quite commion for games to be delayed by 15 minutes or so. This was because there were still terraces, and games weren't all ticket as they are these days. So when /if there was a build up of people outside queueing to get in, the Police would simply tell the ref and home club that the game would be delayed while the congestion outside eased, and they would announce it over the tannoy. Instantly, by this simple act of communication problems were resolved. They didn't do that at hillsborough, that day. They didn't think to. The game wasn't live on TV (though once the tragedy started unfolding, BBC Grandstand did show the scenes from the ground live). I don't know if you've been to Hillsborough, but that away end, where the turnstiles are/were, is/was a natural bottleneck, feeding people towards a narrow semi enclosed area to get to the turnstiles. It was the design or layout of the entrances that were a factor, rather than somehow people (the crowd) willfully causing a crush. Iti s absolutely incumbent on the Police to manage situations where there is a risk of people coming to harm, and there's no doubt the build up outside the ground was such an instance. Rather than take the decision to delay the game, announce it, sort out the queues and so on - they had helicopter CCTV coverage of the situation from above - they could see what was happening, - they failed to communicate with the spectators, with each other, and made a tricky situation worse by simply ordering that the gates next to the turnstiles (the exit gates from the ground) were opened. It was a very bad decision and led to the crush on the terrace. it wasn't the fault of the queuing spetcators. It was a crowd management failing. And one that would have been so simple not to make, had their attitude not been one of treating fans as "trouble" but as "people". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBear Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 Well said Blandy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Rev Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 Agreed, but that argument just brings us full circle to the question, what else can be done now that wasn't already implemented 20 years ago? Hillsborough was an accident waiting to happen and the Taylor report ensured it wouldn't happen again, so this "justice for the 96" campaign still strikes me as being about money or finding a scapegoat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBear Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 Further reading, if you fancy it... http://hfdinfo.com/digital/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qwpzxjor1 Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 Agreed, but that argument just brings us full circle to the question, what else can be done now that wasn't already implemented 20 years ago? Hillsborough was an accident waiting to happen and the Taylor report ensured it wouldn't happen again, so this "justice for the 96" campaign still strikes me as being about money or finding a scapegoat. That's exactly my thoughts on it. The Justice for the 96 Campaign is nothing short of a witchhunt for me. Lets say they get their wish - and evidence is revealed to say that one person in charge, head of police or whatever, made a **** up which directly caused it. What then? Would justice be done? Or would we just get a lynchmob making a person who has probably been haunted by his decision for decades' life even further hell. The Justice for the 96 Campaign is not only pointless, it's disgusting, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarpie Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 These kind of tragedies are pretty much never fault of just one thing or person and never black and white. What I have gathered this was combination of too many people rushing in, police/stewards/etc screwing up, the stadia itself and probably lot of other things going wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa_shere Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 Tragic first hand encounter of the disaster Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qwpzxjor1 Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 These kind of tragedies are pretty much never fault of just one thing or person and never black and white. The JFT96 campaign seem to think it is. If not one person then one organisation / department / system. They want someone, somewhere to be held accountable. What this would gain is completely lost on me. It was a tragedy. Lessons have been learned. It's very sad but lets move on in the knowledge that they did not die in vain, and their deaths have sparked the overhaul needed to make sure everyone can go to football games safely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBear Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 The Justice for the 96 Campaign is not only pointless, it's disgusting, IMO. Are you **** serious? Are you actually 9 years old? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eames Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 These kind of tragedies are pretty much never fault of just one thing or person and never black and white. The JFT96 campaign seem to think it is. If not one person then one organisation / department / system. They want someone, somewhere to be held accountable. What this would gain is completely lost on me. It was a tragedy. Lessons have been learned. It's very sad but lets move on in the knowledge that they did not die in vain, and their deaths have sparked the overhaul needed to make sure everyone can go to football games safely. ^^ Spot on. Had this happened to fans from anywhere else that is exactly what would have happened. Unfortunately it happened to a city renowned for being overly sentimental. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBear Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 Jesus **** Christ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qwpzxjor1 Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 The Justice for the 96 Campaign is not only pointless, it's disgusting, IMO. Are you **** serious? Are you actually 9 years old? No. I'm 27. Thanks for asking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomaszk Posted September 11, 2012 Share Posted September 11, 2012 What does the Justice campaign want? Justice?Which would be what in this circumstance? A name? A clearance of Liverpool fans' name? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted September 11, 2012 Moderator Share Posted September 11, 2012 What does the Justice campaign want? Justice?Which would be what in this circumstance? A name? A clearance of Liverpool fans' name? Doesn't anyone actually read up on subjects they post about? Liverpool fans weren't to blame, the Taylor Report says so. The only people that think that, believe rags like the Sun over legal reviews like the Taylor Report. David Duckenfield was responsible, SYP & Sheffield City Council were responsible… it's fact, legal fact. What Justice is in this instance is the release of THE TRUTH, the whole truth, the release of documents and evidence that has previously been withheld, that might just show how far SYP went to cover up, to smear, to misinform… which is the reason why people still have the impression that "scouse pissheads caused Hillsborough". Why the victims families have had to put up with that shit for years? Where it goes after tomorrow no-one knows. It could have been any fans from any club… We as football fans all need the truth to come out, the full truth, it's affected us all ever since. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drat01 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 What does the Justice campaign want? Justice?Which would be what in this circumstance? A name? A clearance of Liverpool fans' name? Doesn't anyone actually read up on subjects they post about? Liverpool fans weren't to blame, the Taylor Report says so. The only people that think that, believe rags like the Sun over legal reviews like the Taylor Report. David Duckenfield was responsible, SYP & Sheffield City Council were responsible… it's fact, legal fact. What Justice is in this instance is the release of THE TRUTH, the whole truth, the release of documents and evidence that has previously been withheld, that might just show how far SYP went to cover up, to smear, to misinform… which is the reason why people still have the impression that "scouse pissheads caused Hillsborough". Why the victims families have had to put up with that shit for years? Where it goes after tomorrow no-one knows. It could have been any fans from any club… We as football fans all need the truth to come out, the full truth, it's affected us all ever since. Personally I think you are wrong if you put the "blame" solely down to Duckenfield, SYP and Sheffield City Council. Taylor's report, like many others who have commented are afraid to apportion any sort of blame to certain groups, IMO. That is not the done thing to do. I base my views on a few things. At that time I was a keen follower of Villa and yes Hillsborough was a death trap waiting to happen. But likewise so were many grounds of the time. I remember Highbury when we won the league was a crush to get in, being at Highfield Road when there was no escape from Villa fans pushing and trying to force their ways into the fans "pens" that we had to be led into like animals then. A lot of people make comments now that are not based on experiences of that time, but mostly of the sanitised and a lot safer grounds that we now have. The general feeling of Gvmt at that time were that all fans were animals that needed to be caged in with little regard to safety, comfort or any sort of concern. I moved to work in Sheffield the weekend of the disaster and in the weeks that followed stayed in hotels that were also used by Police force etc from many areas that were helping out afterwards. Some of the comments were very clear that they felt problems were caused by, bad policing, lack of organization from council, police but also from the FA and as importantly the attitude of some fans. The pubs around the ground were full of fans as you would expect and the previous times there had been trouble which resulted in some people gaining admission to the ground without tickets. It was seen as a bit of laugh, no one really thought anything as awful would occur. I have friends who were working in a couple of pubs used by some of the fans and they said it was like something out of the OK Coral at times. Since the disaster there has been a concerted effort by some people to absolve themselves of any sort of blame. You may say that is the police, but I would also include the Gvmt of the time, the FA and also (and the one that certain groups never want to hear) the fans. When all start to realize this things will move forward once and for all. It was a terrible disaster, not the fault of one man, one group or one instance. It was an awful cocktail of events that resulted in tragedy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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