uncle_junior Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 This thread is embarrassing for so many, even more so today. I don't think so. People already accepted that Liverpool fan's were not solely to blame for the accident. Your post is even more evidence of people not geting it. "Liverpool fans were not solely to blame for the accident"? Liverpool fans were not in any way to blame for the accident. I don't see how anyone can fail to understand that, other than not *wanting* to do so. I'm not getting into a debate here as anyone with differing opinion is lambasted. That's because your opinion is morally, factually and offensively wrong. I'm still not biting. How plucky of you. There's no need for you to bite, you've managed to align yourself with the cause of idiocy with your posts on this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Steve Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Thread title needs to be changed to 'Hillsborough tragedy was largely the fault of the police'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbaughan Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 You don't know my views as I have not stated them so please don't try and second guess them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBear Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Tim, you know the REAL truth do you? Please share. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RunRickyRun Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 164 statements were significantly amended - and 116 explicitly removed negative comments about the policing operation. 59 out of 96 could have survived. Justice for the 96. I will be observing the 2 minutes silence at 15:06. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbaughan Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Tim, you know the REAL truth do you? Please share. What? Look you need to re read what I said (and so does uncle_junior for that matter) If someone is ignorant enough to believe Liverpool fans were the cause of the accident then this report will not change their mind. I did my research a long time ago and knew the main culprits were the police and this new report holds no new evidence to me. Please feel free to get off that high horse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drat01 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 It will be interesting to see what ex-Tory MP Sir Irvine Patnick 's comments actually were. Also I really do worry that now all we will hear is all football fans were innocent and all coppers were at fault, which is not what is now being said. Danny Baker just said something that was very true in that Football wasn't the fashionable money machine of today at the time of #Hillsborough . Murdoch & The Sun only became its 'best mate' later. which is very true. Fans were the anti-christ, those who according to some in the Thatcher Gvmt should reside behind Electric fences etc. Violence was terrible in the grounds at that time and as we saw at Heysel etc it was violence that helped caused many more deaths along with again another cocktail of misfortunate events and ineptitude. There was like at many semi finals and big matches a lot of drunk people, those who claim there were not are either extremely ignorant of football culture or are trying to bury their heads in the sand. The ground, like many at the time was appalling, who remembers the rivers of piss that flowed down the Holte end? Fans behaved like animals a lot of the time, because lets be honest they were treated like them. There seems to be two major issues here though. What happened and its cause as one and what happened afterwards as the other. The two are not the same IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RunRickyRun Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Agreed, but that argument just brings us full circle to the question, what else can be done now that wasn't already implemented 20 years ago? Hillsborough was an accident waiting to happen and the Taylor report ensured it wouldn't happen again, so this "justice for the 96" campaign still strikes me as being about money or finding a scapegoat. That's exactly my thoughts on it. The Justice for the 96 Campaign is nothing short of a witchhunt for me. Lets say they get their wish - and evidence is revealed to say that one person in charge, head of police or whatever, made a **** up which directly caused it. What then? Would justice be done? Or would we just get a lynchmob making a person who has probably been haunted by his decision for decades' life even further hell. The Justice for the 96 Campaign is not only pointless, it's disgusting, IMO. In light of today's parliamentary debate, I hope you are ashamed of this post (but knowing the state of this thread you wont be). The families have acted with tremendous dignity for 8551 days and it's only though their tireless campaigning that (some of) the truth has finally been revealed. To label their campaign as disgusting is appalling. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ryanvilla_1994 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Some awful posts in this thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Well today's report is fairly conclusive to say the least! I hope some of the families can now feel they have achieved some vindication against those who claimed it was their own fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBear Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 I don't see why this is a surprise. Liverpool fans did cause the incident. And before somebody jumps on that in the way they tend to when it comes to talk about Hillsborough, which tends to be very dogmatic these days, it was people jumping over the wall and getting into the ground without tickets which caused all of the deaths. Yes, Hillsborough was an accident waiting to happen and Liverpool were the poor bastards who drew the short straw and yes, it is an absolute shame that so many innocent people died but I still never understood what the "Justice for the 96" campaign actually wanted. The biggest fallout from the incident was the Taylor Report which as far as I can tell solved every problem which contributed to Hillsborough. England now has the safest and most modern stadiums in the world and the increased policing and security which came in following Hillsborough has all but eliminated Hooliganism from the game. You can now take your kids to the game if you want, something which was a much more dangerous proposition when I was growing up in the 80s. So if the government made sure that Hillsborough could never happen again 15 years ago then other than trying to get money or the name and address of a scapegoat who could then get lynched by Liverpool fans whether it was their fault or not I cant see what the point in this campaign was in the first place. Maybe it is time to close it, mourn the dead and move on with our lives. Still stand by this Rev? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eames Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 I don't see why this is a surprise. Liverpool fans did cause the incident. And before somebody jumps on that in the way they tend to when it comes to talk about Hillsborough, which tends to be very dogmatic these days, it was people jumping over the wall and getting into the ground without tickets which caused all of the deaths. Yes, Hillsborough was an accident waiting to happen and Liverpool were the poor bastards who drew the short straw and yes, it is an absolute shame that so many innocent people died but I still never understood what the "Justice for the 96" campaign actually wanted. The biggest fallout from the incident was the Taylor Report which as far as I can tell solved every problem which contributed to Hillsborough. England now has the safest and most modern stadiums in the world and the increased policing and security which came in following Hillsborough has all but eliminated Hooliganism from the game. You can now take your kids to the game if you want, something which was a much more dangerous proposition when I was growing up in the 80s. So if the government made sure that Hillsborough could never happen again 15 years ago then other than trying to get money or the name and address of a scapegoat who could then get lynched by Liverpool fans whether it was their fault or not I cant see what the point in this campaign was in the first place. Maybe it is time to close it, mourn the dead and move on with our lives. Still stand by this Rev? Ok different people have different views on Hillsborough and what happened on that day. Regardless of what they are, and regardless of what has been published today people are STILL entitled to hold them if they so choose. To now trawl back and villify anyone and everyone who for whatever reason has an opinion different from yours is verging on post on poster and should not happen on this forum. Some of the opinions I have held about what happened have been changed as a result of today. The tragedy for those families and the behaviour of the Police was totally abhorrant and I admire those families determination to get closer to the truth. To use such a report as a stick with which to beat people who have disagreed with you makes as you as bad as those you seek to vilify. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBear Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 It was the one comment which rankled with me and I wanted to ask him if he still stood by what he said. I'm not on some "I told you so" witchhunt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drat01 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 People who read VT will know that typically I disagree with nearly all of what Eames says and stands for but this is one of those rare occasions that I agree with him TheBear your reactions especially in your last post reminds me of someone like Martin Keown in that Man Utd Arsenal match when Van Nistelroy missed the penalty. Rather than the aggressive posts why not contribute to debate and discuss why you think these things happened and what has improved and what is still as bad within football? As you will see across many forums and social media sites there are still a lot of people that feel that rather than blaming one or two groups of people that day there were many factors not only those that happened on the day itself that contributed significantly to its causes. How would you answer that, do you agree? What about the fan culture of the time, fans being killed in grounds such as sha when they played Leeds, at Heysell when Liverpool fans basically significantly contributed to the deaths of many Italians. Has that now improved by the changes that came in at the time? The powers that be, including media who contributed to the post event happenings at H'boro need to be asked to justify their actions now certainly. Including the Sun, The Tory MP, The Gvmt of the Time, The police etc etc, but as Nayson (Rev) rightly says football is a far safer place now and its awful that something as bad as this was needed to get there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eames Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 People who read VT will know that typically I disagree with nearly of what Eames says and stands for but this is one of those rare occasions that I agree with him Thats made me go all tingly Drat. Now.... since we're in a spirit of unity and brotherhood, repeat after me. "Boris Johnson is a all round top guy" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drat01 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 People who read VT will know that typically I disagree with nearly of what Eames says and stands for but this is one of those rare occasions that I agree with him Thats made me go all tingly Drat. Now.... since we're in a spirit of unity and brotherhood, repeat after me. "Boris Johnson is a all round top guy" Boris Johnson - complete and utter twazzock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eames Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBear Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Apologies if I came across as a dick, not looking to beat anyone over the head for their comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBear Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 And don't compare me to Martin Keown. That was well below the belt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Some of the opinions I have held about what happened have been changed as a result of today. The tragedy for those families and the behaviour of the Police was totally abhorrant and I admire those families determination to get closer to the truth. Fair play Eames. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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