Qwpzxjor1 Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 This argument is edging dangerously close to "Thatcher is to blame." I'm pretty sure when that happens the argument is over. It's a similar rule to "thats what Hitler would have done." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 This argument is edging dangerously close to "Thatcher is to blame." I'm pretty sure when that happens the argument is over. It's a similar rule to "thats what Hitler would have done." Are you still here? I thought you were taking your bat and ball and going home? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smetrov Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Lets not forget if only the fans with tickets had turned up - it wouldn't have happened. Granted there were errors on the day - but now it seems that were are getting close to blaming the police for the whole thing. Sigh The [Taylor] report also highlights that there were only 7 turnstiles made available to admit 10,100 Liverpool fans to the terraces. At the normal rate of 750 people per turnstile per hour, it would have taken two hours to admit all these fans into the stadium. It was inevitable that there would have been a crush outside of the ground with this lack of foresight. Contrast this to the other end where 60 turnstiles were made available to admit 29000 fans. But this wasn't a new staduim ? - what I mean is that the turnstiles at that end must have processed something close to that volume of fans in the past ? Also I would have thought - that the crush was caused by to many people being in that Terrace - not by the speed they got there ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eames Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Lets not forget if only the fans with tickets had turned up - it wouldn't have happened. Granted there were errors on the day - but now it seems that were are getting close to blaming the police for the whole thing. Sigh The [Taylor] report also highlights that there were only 7 turnstiles made available to admit 10,100 Liverpool fans to the terraces. At the normal rate of 750 people per turnstile per hour, it would have taken two hours to admit all these fans into the stadium. It was inevitable that there would have been a crush outside of the ground with this lack of foresight. Contrast this to the other end where 60 turnstiles were made available to admit 29000 fans. But this wasn't a new staduim ? - what I mean is that the turnstiles at that end must have processed something close to that volume of fans in the past ? Also I would have thought - that the crush was caused by to many people being in that Terrace - not by the speed they got there ? Leppings Lane is/was the away stand at Hillsborough so generally would have had fewer fans in it, than would have been expected than when used as a neutral venue for the FA Cup tie? Just a hypothesis.......? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Also I would have thought - that the crush was caused by to many people being in that Terrace - not by the speed they got there ? The away end couldn't handle the fans and most people were still waiting outside to get in even at kick off. The police opened the exit gate which led to people rushing in to get a spot for that game which had just kicked off. The resulting crush is exactly what happens when you have a massive gathering and no crowd control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CI Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 It would be nice to see a few politicians locked up over this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeMcKenna Posted September 13, 2012 VT Supporter Share Posted September 13, 2012 stuff I am amazed that you think all that stuff I am amazed that you think such a position is tenable. Be amazed then. We'll just have to disagree. Frankly, I'm not amazing by the 'revelation' that police in the 80s did some naughty stuff. "The suspect fell down the stairs and died". Yeah, that one. We all knew this went on, and again the world has moved on; numerous police investigations have cleared up this behaviour. We're just going over old ground now, we're never going to agree so I'll just leave you guys to continue arguing amongst yourselves. I'll come back into this thread and eat humble pie if something comes about from all this which impacts the state of policing and crowd control in the future. Until then, I bid you adieu. "I'll come back into this thread and eat humble pie if something comes about from all this which impacts the state of policing and crowd control in the future." You still don't get it do you? The debate now is about the police cover up and the individuals responsible being brought to justice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PompeyVillan Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 It doesn't matter? It doesn't flipping matter that the police were responsible for the deaths of 96 people, and then blamed the victims? Just because it happened 23 years ago does not mean that it does not matter. It means that the police were corrupt enough to try to cover this up, and we didn't know the truth until 23 years later. It matters because we don't know when the corruption started and we don't know when/if it has ended. We don't know to what extent the police were corrupt. It opens up so many different avenues of investigation that it certainly does matter. I very much expect the police as an institution attempt to sidestep the issue of corruption and make scapegoats of those directly responsible for the cover up. But with the cover up being so bold and crude, it's worrying how high this level of corruption actually went. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RunRickyRun Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Lets not forget if only the fans with tickets had turned up - it wouldn't have happened. Granted there were errors on the day - but now it seems that were are getting close to blaming the police for the whole thing. Sigh The [Taylor] report also highlights that there were only 7 turnstiles made available to admit 10,100 Liverpool fans to the terraces. At the normal rate of 750 people per turnstile per hour, it would have taken two hours to admit all these fans into the stadium. It was inevitable that there would have been a crush outside of the ground with this lack of foresight. Contrast this to the other end where 60 turnstiles were made available to admit 29000 fans. But this wasn't a new staduim ? - what I mean is that the turnstiles at that end must have processed something close to that volume of fans in the past ? Also I would have thought - that the crush was caused by to many people being in that Terrace - not by the speed they got there ? From the Taylor report 265. The immediate cause of the gross overcrowding and hence the disaster was the failure, when gate C was opened, to cut off access to the central pens which were already overfull. This was managed in previous years by stationing horses at the entrance to the central pens so fans would funnel into the adjacent pens. That is one of the crucial differences between that year's handling of events compared with other years which led to the tragedy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smetrov Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Lets not forget if only the fans with tickets had turned up - it wouldn't have happened. Granted there were errors on the day - but now it seems that were are getting close to blaming the police for the whole thing. Sigh The [Taylor] report also highlights that there were only 7 turnstiles made available to admit 10,100 Liverpool fans to the terraces. At the normal rate of 750 people per turnstile per hour, it would have taken two hours to admit all these fans into the stadium. It was inevitable that there would have been a crush outside of the ground with this lack of foresight. Contrast this to the other end where 60 turnstiles were made available to admit 29000 fans. But this wasn't a new staduim ? - what I mean is that the turnstiles at that end must have processed something close to that volume of fans in the past ? Also I would have thought - that the crush was caused by to many people being in that Terrace - not by the speed they got there ? Leppings Lane is/was the away stand at Hillsborough so generally would have had fewer fans in it, than would have been expected than when used as a neutral venue for the FA Cup tie? Just a hypothesis.......? Granted it wouldn't be packed out every week. but there must have been times when that end was filled to capacity - in relative terms Sheffield are a big club - the Sheffield derbies for example. I can't believe that however long Hillsborough has been standing - that until that day it was never packed out - or else why would they build it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted September 13, 2012 Moderator Share Posted September 13, 2012 Lets not forget if only the fans with tickets had turned up - it wouldn't have happened. Granted there were errors on the day - but now it seems that were are getting close to blaming the police for the whole thing. Another post made without reading any of the evidence The fans were never to blame, the original Taylor report said so - fact There is NO EVIDENCE of large numbers of ticketless fans - its in the Taylor report - again FACT The police were to blame - again, that is who the original Taylor report also blamed But lets take your ridiculous notion one stage further. If only the fans who had tickets turned up, they would have had to arrive 2 hours before kick off to guarantee getting in on time. There were 10,100 tickets available for the Leppings Lane terrace, the were only 7 working turnstiles, turnstiles let through 750 people an hour. It would take 2 hours to get everyone through. Also if you actually know how the road layout was at the time, the LL end is in a dead end once you've gone into it (with no police control) you're **** in a crush. People who can't be arsed to actually read what happened and just spout ill-informed shite really do make a mockery of themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted September 13, 2012 Moderator Share Posted September 13, 2012 I can't believe that however long Hillsborough has been standing - that until that day it was never packed out - or else why would they build it It was, one year before, same teams, same fixtures, fans complained about it, LFC even appealed to the FA when the venue was announced to hold it somewhere else because the crushing was so bad the previous year and I can tell you from first hand experience how bad it was I was there the season before, I was there in the central pens, it was horrendous. This wasn't something that came as a shock, the FA never listened, the FA and the city council were culpable for that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smetrov Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Lets not forget if only the fans with tickets had turned up - it wouldn't have happened. Granted there were errors on the day - but now it seems that were are getting close to blaming the police for the whole thing. Another post made without reading any of the evidence The fans were never to blame, the original Taylor report said so - fact There is NO EVIDENCE of large numbers of ticketless fans - its in the Taylor report - again FACT The police were to blame - again, that is who the original Taylor report also blamed But lets take your ridiculous notion one stage further. If only the fans who had tickets turned up, they would have had to arrive 2 hours before kick off to guarantee getting in on time. There were 10,100 tickets available for the Leppings Lane terrace, the were only 7 working turnstiles, turnstiles let through 750 people an hour. It would take 2 hours to get everyone through. Also if you actually know how the road layout was at the time, the LL end is in a dead end once you've gone into it (with no police control) you're **** in a crush. People who can't be arsed to actually read what happened and just spout ill-informed shite really do make a mockery of themselves. Dress it up how you like - the scousers have had 23 years to prepare there case - Had the police continually sought evidence over these 23 years - they may have been able to counter this weeks findings. Its up to you what you believe - but just because something is in an official report - doesn't make it a stonewall fact IMO. Whats happening now is a whitewash in favour of the scousers. I suspect the mistake they will make is to go for prosecutions. If they do they may find the 'accused' are just as capable of gathering evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Dress it up how you like - the scousers have had 23 years to prepare there case - Had the police continually sought evidence over these 23 years - they may have been able to counter this weeks findings. You should be utterly ashamed of yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted September 13, 2012 Moderator Share Posted September 13, 2012 Lets not forget if only the fans with tickets had turned up - it wouldn't have happened. Granted there were errors on the day - but now it seems that were are getting close to blaming the police for the whole thing. Another post made without reading any of the evidence The fans were never to blame, the original Taylor report said so - fact There is NO EVIDENCE of large numbers of ticketless fans - its in the Taylor report - again FACT The police were to blame - again, that is who the original Taylor report also blamed But lets take your ridiculous notion one stage further. If only the fans who had tickets turned up, they would have had to arrive 2 hours before kick off to guarantee getting in on time. There were 10,100 tickets available for the Leppings Lane terrace, the were only 7 working turnstiles, turnstiles let through 750 people an hour. It would take 2 hours to get everyone through. Also if you actually know how the road layout was at the time, the LL end is in a dead end once you've gone into it (with no police control) you're **** in a crush. People who can't be arsed to actually read what happened and just spout ill-informed shite really do make a mockery of themselves. Dress it up how you like - the scousers have had 23 years to prepare there case - Had the police continually sought evidence over these 23 years - they may have been able to counter this weeks findings. Its up to you what you believe - but just because something is in an official report - doesn't make it a stonewall fact IMO. Whats happening now is a whitewash in favour of the scousers. I suspect the mistake they will make is to go for prosecutions. If they do they may find the 'accused' are just as capable of gathering evidence. You clearly don't even understand what has gone on, you should be embarrassed for yourself. Site guidelines prevent me from saying anything else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMilnereatsnails Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 This has probably been said before but I've tried looking at this from a different viewpoint. At the time of this tragedy there was a deep undercurrent of nasty behaviour going on within football culture as a whole. The grounds generally were unsafe and not fit for purpose, as many have said, this was an accident waiting to happen. When the Hillsborough disaster struck The police were of course aware of where the blame lay but had they admitted this at the time, what would have been the immediate reaction? By isolating the Liverpool fans, the police and the Government found a likely scapegoat. This action was taken to avoid what I imagine the Government considered possible Marshall Law across Britain if the immediate truth were to be uncovered. Obviously this had to be avoided. What the conspirators did not consider was the will of the Liverpool people to keep this issue alive. Over the years there has been a sense of growing separation between Liverpool and the rest of the UK whilst the truth of what really happened was fought to be revealed. The families of the 96 have now won the first round of that fight and hopefully can go on to find closure over the coming years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JMilnereatsnails Posted September 13, 2012 Share Posted September 13, 2012 Lets not forget if only the fans with tickets had turned up - it wouldn't have happened. Granted there were errors on the day - but now it seems that were are getting close to blaming the police for the whole thing. Another post made without reading any of the evidence The fans were never to blame, the original Taylor report said so - fact There is NO EVIDENCE of large numbers of ticketless fans - its in the Taylor report - again FACT The police were to blame - again, that is who the original Taylor report also blamed But lets take your ridiculous notion one stage further. If only the fans who had tickets turned up, they would have had to arrive 2 hours before kick off to guarantee getting in on time. There were 10,100 tickets available for the Leppings Lane terrace, the were only 7 working turnstiles, turnstiles let through 750 people an hour. It would take 2 hours to get everyone through. Also if you actually know how the road layout was at the time, the LL end is in a dead end once you've gone into it (with no police control) you're **** in a crush. People who can't be arsed to actually read what happened and just spout ill-informed shite really do make a mockery of themselves. Dress it up how you like - the scousers have had 23 years to prepare there case - Had the police continually sought evidence over these 23 years - they may have been able to counter this weeks findings. Its up to you what you believe - but just because something is in an official report - doesn't make it a stonewall fact IMO. Whats happening now is a whitewash in favour of the scousers. I suspect the mistake they will make is to go for prosecutions. If they do they may find the 'accused' are just as capable of gathering evidence. Oh, and while I'm on the subject, you are an absolute disgrace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 It would seem that the Taylor Report, combined with the findings of this latest inquest should lay to rest any further accusations of fan culpability on that day. It would seem that there has been vindication, if not justice, for all the people who were slandered in the press and by the authorities in the aftermath of the tragedy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBear Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 Lets not forget if only the fans with tickets had turned up - it wouldn't have happened. Granted there were errors on the day - but now it seems that were are getting close to blaming the police for the whole thing. Another post made without reading any of the evidence The fans were never to blame, the original Taylor report said so - fact There is NO EVIDENCE of large numbers of ticketless fans - its in the Taylor report - again FACT The police were to blame - again, that is who the original Taylor report also blamed But lets take your ridiculous notion one stage further. If only the fans who had tickets turned up, they would have had to arrive 2 hours before kick off to guarantee getting in on time. There were 10,100 tickets available for the Leppings Lane terrace, the were only 7 working turnstiles, turnstiles let through 750 people an hour. It would take 2 hours to get everyone through. Also if you actually know how the road layout was at the time, the LL end is in a dead end once you've gone into it (with no police control) you're **** in a crush. People who can't be arsed to actually read what happened and just spout ill-informed shite really do make a mockery of themselves. Dress it up how you like - the scousers have had 23 years to prepare there case - Had the police continually sought evidence over these 23 years - they may have been able to counter this weeks findings. Its up to you what you believe - but just because something is in an official report - doesn't make it a stonewall fact IMO. Whats happening now is a whitewash in favour of the scousers. I suspect the mistake they will make is to go for prosecutions. If they do they may find the 'accused' are just as capable of gathering evidence. OH. MY. JESUS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted September 14, 2012 Share Posted September 14, 2012 Dress it up how you like - the scousers have had 23 years to prepare there case - Had the police continually sought evidence over these 23 years - they may have been able to counter this weeks findings. Can someone actually be that blinded by hatred? The 'scousers' never prepared the case. It was an independent government review which has come to these conclusions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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