blandy Posted September 12, 2012 Moderator Share Posted September 12, 2012 ...They can now say 'See? - we were right! We were right!'. Worth the time effort and expense? I'm not sure the world will wake up tomorrow any differently. The time and expense incurred, not least the cost in stress and finance for the families, but also the (in monetary terms) greater expense incurred by the state is as a result of systematic lying concealment and incompetence of the "authorities". Worth the time and expense - definitely. It shouldn't have taken all that, but it did. The world will seem very different, I hope, again, not least for the people touched by the tragedy. But also for many football fans generally. To quote what the PM said, today ...public inquiry at the time by Lord Justice Taylor which found – and I quote – that the main cause of the disaster was "a failure of police control". But the inquiry didn't have access to all the documents that have since become available. It didn't properly examine the response of the emergency services. It was followed by a deeply controversial inquest and by a media version of events that sought to blame the fans. As a result, the families have not heard the truth and have not found justice. ... it is already very clear that many of the report's findings are deeply distressing. There are three areas in particular. The failure of the authorities to help protect people. The attempt to blame the fans. And the doubt cast on the original coroner's inquest. ... ...new evidence about how the authorities failed. There is a trail of new documents which show the extent to which the safety of the crowd at Hillsborough was "compromised at every level". ....lessons had not been learnt. The report backs up again the key finding of the Taylor Report on police failure. But it goes further by revealing for the first time the shortcomings of the ambulance and emergency services' response. The major incident plan was not fully implemented. Rescue attempts were held back by failures of leadership and co-ordination. And, significantly, new documents today show there was a delay from the emergency services when people were being crushed and killed. the families have long believed that some of the authorities attempted to create a completely unjust account of events that sought to blame the fans for what happened. Mr Speaker, the families were right. The evidence in today's report includes briefings to the media and attempts by the police to change the record of events. On the media: several newspapers reported false allegations that fans were drunk and violent and stole from the dead. The Sun's report sensationalised these allegations under a banner headline, "The Truth". This was clearly wrong and caused huge offence, distress and hurt. News International has co-operated with the panel and, for the first time, today's report reveals that the source for these despicable untruths was a Sheffield news agency reporting conversations with South Yorkshire police and Irvine Patnick, the then MP for Sheffield Hallam. The report finds that this was part of police efforts – and I quote – "to develop and publicise a version of events that focused on … allegations of drunkenness, ticketlessness and violence." In terms of changing the record of events, we already know that police reports were significantly altered but the full extent was not drawn to Lord Justice Taylor's attention. Today's report finds that 164 statements were significantly amended – and 116 explicitly removed negative comments about the policing operation – including its lack of leadership. The report also makes important findings about particular actions taken by the police and coroner while investigating the deaths. There is new evidence which shows that police officers carried out police national computer checks on those who had died in an attempt – and I quote from the report – "to impugn the reputations of the deceased." The coroner took blood alcohol levels from all of the deceased including children. The panel finds no rationale whatsoever for what it regards as an "exceptional" decision. The report states clearly that the attempt of the inquest to draw a link between blood alcohol and late arrival was "fundamentally flawed". And that alcohol consumption was "unremarkable and not exceptional for a social or leisure occasion". .....governments then and since have simply not done enough to challenge publicly the unjust and untrue narrative that sought to blame the fans. significant doubt over the adequacy of the original inquest....the panel have found that 28 did not have obstruction of blood circulation and 31 had evidence of heart and lungs continuing to function after the crush. This means that individuals in those groups could have had potentially reversible asphyxia beyond 3.15pm in contrast to the findings of the coroner and a subsequent judicial review. And the panel states clearly that "it is highly likely that what happened to those individuals after 3.15pm was significant" in determining whether they died. Mr Speaker, the conclusions of this report will be harrowing for many of the families affected. Anyone who has lost a child knows the pain never leaves you. But to read a report years afterwards that says – and I quote– "a swifter, more appropriate, better focused and properly equipped response had the potential to save more lives" can only add to the pain. ...after 23 years this matters so much, not just for the families but for Liverpool and for our country as a whole. ...what happened that day – and since – was wrong. It was wrong that the responsible authorities knew Hillsborough did not meet minimum safety standards and yet still allowed the match to go ahead. It was wrong that the families have had to wait for so long – and fight so hard – just to get to the truth. And it was wrong that the police changed the records of what happened and tried to blame the fans.... It was also wrong that neither Lord Justice Taylor nor the coroner looked properly at the response of the other emergency services. Again, these are dedicated people who do extraordinary things to serve the public. ...it is right for me today as prime minister to make a proper apology to the families of the 96 for all they have suffered over the past 23 years. Indeed, the new evidence that we are presented with today makes clear that these families have suffered a double injustice. The injustice of the appalling events – the failure of the state to protect their loved ones and the indefensible wait to get to the truth. And the injustice of the denigration of the deceased – that they were somehow at fault for their own deaths. On behalf of the government – and indeed our country – I am profoundly sorry for this double injustice that has been left uncorrected for so long. ...not enough people in this country understand what the people of Merseyside have been through. This appalling death toll of so many loved ones lost was compounded by an attempt to blame the victims. A narrative about hooliganism on that day was created which led many in the country to accept that it was somehow a grey area. Today's report is black and white. The Liverpool fans "were not the cause of the disaster". The panel has quite simply found "no evidence" in support of allegations of "exceptional levels of drunkenness, ticketlessness or violence among Liverpool fans", "no evidence that fans had conspired to arrive late at the stadium" and "no evidence that they stole from the dead and dying". ....While nothing can ever bring back those who have been lost with all the documents revealed and nothing held back the families, at last, have access to the truth. He's right, Cameron. That it's taken so long to be clearly, openly revealed that the fans and people who died were innocent, that they were deliberately smeared, that many of them could have been saved, that the police and some media deliberately spread lies about them, that there was a massive cover up. It's just amazing that anyone could not change their minds and have their outlook changed as a result is just...sad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CI Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 The best hope from today is that it brings closure on the whole tragedy. I fear it will just add further fuel to the fire and we will have years now of Jewish style nazi witch hunts. I'm not sure that's closure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted September 12, 2012 Moderator Share Posted September 12, 2012 Will the hate and resentment shown by many in Liverpool towards the police and The Sun newspaper now be just even more pronounced ? (possibly rightly so). I understand it brings a degree of closure and justice for the bereaved friends and family but does it not also open up a massive rift. Could the hate in Liverpool towards the Sun newspaper be any more pronounced than it already is? I doubt it, you'd be lucky to find a newsagent that stocks it on Merseyside. The hate and resentment towards the police is no different to any other city nor will it be any different after this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted September 12, 2012 Moderator Share Posted September 12, 2012 The best hope from today is that it brings closure on the whole tragedy. I fear it will just add further fuel to the fire and we will have years now of Jewish style nazi witch hunts. I'm not sure that's closure. Today was never going to bring closure, today was just the beginning of the end, there's still a long road ahead before there's closure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CI Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Yes I tend to agree with you. This will probably get dragged out for years to come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted September 12, 2012 Moderator Share Posted September 12, 2012 Yes I tend to agree with you. This will probably get dragged out for years to come. Any dragging out of this affair hasn't been done by the Hillsborough campaign now has it? You'd have to be Mr Dim from Dimtown, Dimland to even think that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CI Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 You missed the point, yes this has been dragged on for 23 years to date. It would of been nice to draw a line now but that will be impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
03butpau Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 For me this changes nothing, they are still murderers, RIP Heysal Justice for the 39 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarewsEyebrowDesigner Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Why draw a line now? No one has yet to be held to account. There has yet to be justice. If it is 'dragged on' anymore it is because they are looking to prosecute those responsible, and so they should. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 For me this changes nothing, they are still murderers, RIP Heysal Justice for the 39 Are you sure it was the same people at both matches? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted September 12, 2012 Moderator Share Posted September 12, 2012 For me this changes nothing, they are still murderers, RIP Heysal Justice for the 39 You do know that the people responsible for that were prosecuted a long long time ago don't you? 14 people got 3 year sentences for manslaughter Thats the justice system in action Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dAVe80 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 For me this changes nothing, they are still murderers, RIP Heysal Justice for the 39 Sorry, but what the hell has Heysel got to do with what happened at Hillsborough? The youngest person who died, would have been 3 at the time of Heysel for God's sake! Did he 'murder' the Juventus fans? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PompeyVillan Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 You missed the point, yes this has been dragged on for 23 years to date. It would of been nice to draw a line now but that will be impossible. I think you're missing the point. The government are finally admitting the truth, now the families will be looking for accountability. This has nothing to do with 'dragging' anything out. If you had lost a loved one at Hillsborough you would damn well want the incompetent and lying bastards responsible for it to be made account for their crimes. Whether it is one year or 40 years it doesn't matter. The mistakes were mistakes. It was incompetency of the highest order, but it wasn't malicious. The cover up is absolutely disgraceful. In the past I've never paid this much mind, and dismissed some of it as 'Victimpool' antics, of which they are guilty (but not in regard to this issue!). I'm shocked at the level of cover up involved in this, it's shameful. Horrible. I support them in their quest for justice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PompeyVillan Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 For me this changes nothing, they are still murderers, RIP Heysal Justice for the 39 The very same people at Hillsborough were at Heysal also? 'Liverpool fans' are not murderers, the people involved in that incident were. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CI Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Oh I agree, what I meant was its a shame that there cannot be closure now. The truth came out today and now the quest for justice begins. Let's hope they nail the correct people and quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHV Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 For me this changes nothing, they are still murderers, RIP Heysal Justice for the 39 Good grief. I have read some nonsense on here (usually my own posts ) but this really is the crowning turd in the water pipe! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KHV Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 For me this changes nothing, they are still murderers, RIP Heysal Justice for the 39 The very same people at Hillsborough were at Heysal also? 'Liverpool fans' are not murderers, the people involved in that incident were. The Heysal incident is not as simple as some people believe either. Lack of policing/poor policing and a totally inadequate stadium that was nowhere near safe were also factors in the Liverpool/Juve game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbaughan Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 For what it's worth I wish the whole of the UK would boycott the Sun. Not because of this but because it's shit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted September 12, 2012 Share Posted September 12, 2012 Was on last night but watching it now, Still unbelievable scenes when you look back at it . Today's findings and apology won't right the wrongs on that day but can at least clear the names of the victims who were wrongfully accused of causing the event Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeMcKenna Posted September 12, 2012 VT Supporter Share Posted September 12, 2012 It's quite shocking and shameful that some posters here, despite the now proven cover up by the police, cannot simply acknowledge the appalling wrongs done on the day. If you haven't read the report, I suggest you read the parts which refer to the fact that up to 40 people's lives could potentially have been saved had the police and emergency services acted sooner. As now, the vast majority of fans were responsible and hooligans were in the significant minority. But the police & football authorities treated us like cattle. Anyone who followed Villa in the 70's & 80's will know this tragedy could have befallen our own or any of the major clubs. I often attended major games where the crush of fans from behind was at times terrifying. Major games were invariably poorly policed and the physical safety of fans was secondary. A number of stadiums were effectively death traps and it is nothing short of amazing that other disasters didn't result from overcrowding and often irresponsible policing. The families of the fans that died deserve our respect for their tenacity and courage. I sincerely hope that the individuals who lied & covered up their incompetence are brought to justice. As for individuals such as Kelvin McKenzie and Boris Johnson and media such as the Sun newspaper all right thinking football fans should treat them with absolute contempt. It could have easily have been us and ours! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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