The Tim Sherwood Thread

[GENTLEMAN]

Neil Warnock, he has that required Premier League experience

Warnock just needs Fergie to send a letter of recommendation to Lerner . Seriously though, Premier League experience is a load of tosh. 

[BOF]

Neil Warnock, he has that required Premier League experience

I believe we asked for a proven track record   Being a pile of wank doesn't actually count.

our last 3 managers had no track record but Premier League experience

Which is why THIS time ... never mind

[Keyblade]

Lambert had a track record to be fair. Sherwood has the equivelant of 6 hours of community service.

[BG_Villa_Fan]

 

Various teams have proved your opinion wrong.

One of the biggest mistakes football teams make, imo, is holding onto managers for too long.

Well I suppose we're looking at this from completely different angles because I don't think so at all. 

We did it ourselves with MON. Imagine if we'd sacked MON After that first ro second 6th place finish and gone with somebody who could break through the ceiling that MON had hit?

We most likely would have had 2 less 6th finishes, judging on the actual reality of what has happened since then rather than simple hypothesizing.

Stoke did it with Pulis. You could argue Everton did it with Moyes.

Disagree. Neither Pulis for Stoke , nor Moyes at Everton were ever a short-term managers for them. They were exactly the opposite of that. Both have proven they're not below the Stokes and Evertons of the world. It's true their time was up at a certain point, for different reasons mind, but that's not because they were ever short-term appointments. 

Having the balls to realize when someone's hit a ceiling is an important aspect, no doubt, and a very difficult one to judge as well, but it has nothing to do with going for short-term mindset from the get-go. 

Edited October 9, 2015 by BG_Villa_Fan

[Stevo985]

We'd all rather get somebody better in. But how many better managers than Allardyce are available and will come to Villa? I bet the list is very very small.

Hard to say on "will come to Villa", but as I mentioned earlier, I'd rather see a foreign coach with new ideas come to the club.  Lucien Favre would be a coup and a half, for example.

Like I said. "will come to Villa".

Favre wouldn't.

If you expand our options to include managers on that level then suddenly Allardyce doesn't seem like a great choice. But the truth of the matter is managers like Favre are way above us. Why on earth would he come here?

[Stevo985]

 

Various teams have proved your opinion wrong.

One of the biggest mistakes football teams make, imo, is holding onto managers for too long.

Well I suppose we're looking at this from completely different angles because I don't think so at all. 

We did it ourselves with MON. Imagine if we'd sacked MON After that first ro second 6th place finish and gone with somebody who could break through the ceiling that MON had hit?

We most likely would have had 2 less 6th finishes, judging on the actual reality of what has happened since then rather than simple hypothesizing.

Stoke did it with Pulis. You could argue Everton did it with Moyes.

Disagree. Neither Pulis for Stoke , nor Moyes at Everton were ever a short-term managers for them. They were exactly the opposite of that. Both have proven they're not below the Stokes and Evertons of the world. It's true their time was up at a certain point, for different reasons mind, but that's not because they were ever short-term appointments. 

Having the balls to realize when someone's hit a ceiling is an important aspect, no doubt, and a very difficult one to judge as well, but it has nothing to do with going for short-term mindset from the get-go. 

You've misunderstood me. I didn't say Pulis and Moyes were short term managers. I said their clubs held onto them for too long. Your last paragraph agrees with my point, so I'm not really sure what you're debating.

[AshVilla]

Favre would just be another pissing in the wind option

Who knows how good or bad he'd be we can't really afford to gamble on unknown quantities

[DeadlyDirk]

Looking at Tuckman's 5 stages of group development, (There's Forming, Storming, Norming, Performing and then finally Mourning...) - Seems that Tim doesn't understand or embrace this proven concept. It seems we've been stuck in the Storming phase are showing no signs of getting out of it. For the uninitiated, Forming is when a group comes together (or signed by the club - so pre-season), which was ongoing all through the transfer window. When a new member comes into a group, the cycle reverts to the forming phase. The storming phase is the power struggle in the group, people vye for position, like the leader, the alpha male, etc and disagreements can occur. Norming is when things start to settle down and a spot of group cohesion emerges, whilst performing is when everything is ticking along and the team are performing and getting results. Mourning is when someone leaves or the group is disbanded.

If I had to put a guess to it, I would say that we're at the storming stage, but knocking at the door of norming now. With a ridiculous amount of changes this was always going to be a long process. Whilst I think TS is rubbish and a chancer and that I would love to see him replaced with someone more capable, I just fear we'll start the cycle all over again with a new manager, it would probably be a quicker process, although sometimes an anomaly occurs and it the group sticks together and the process isn't repeated, it'll be just that "Performing" will be exaggerated.

TS needs to embrace this concept quickly because through the years it's been a proven model and example of how groups come together.

 

I almost wee'd myself laughing there, thanks for the holding up of the mirror!

[BG_Villa_Fan]

 

You've misunderstood me. I didn't say Pulis and Moyes were short term managers. I said their clubs held onto them for too long. Your last paragraph agrees with my point, so I'm not really sure what you're debating.

It really doesn't. 

But you're correct that this debate doesn't seem to be going anywhere. 

[GENTLEMAN]

Favre would just be another pissing in the wind option

Who knows how good or bad he'd be we can't really afford to gamble on unknown quantities

Kevin Keegan? Stuart Pearce? 

[tinker]

There's more to our problems than the manager, there doesn't appear to be any structure the club, there's no Doug Ellis living and breathing for the club, giving it a heart. We have some faceless directors and a missing owner who all abandon any manger we have, they become isolated and under pressure from  the first run of bad form.

Lerner said he was going to appoint an MD if he didn't sell us, he needs to do it now, Maybe an old manager with experience of the highs and lows of football, at the moment we are becoming a grave yard of managers  

[bobzy]

We'd all rather get somebody better in. But how many better managers than Allardyce are available and will come to Villa? I bet the list is very very small.

Hard to say on "will come to Villa", but as I mentioned earlier, I'd rather see a foreign coach with new ideas come to the club.  Lucien Favre would be a coup and a half, for example.

Like I said. "will come to Villa".

Favre wouldn't.

If you expand our options to include managers on that level then suddenly Allardyce doesn't seem like a great choice. But the truth of the matter is managers like Favre are way above us. Why on earth would he come here?

I don't think we can say either way.  He went to relegation-favourites Borussia Monchengladbach so... why not Villa?  Plenty of financial clout (even with Lerner, we outspend most European teams), plenty of improvement to be made, potential platform for managing one of the bigger clubs etc. etc.  He fashioned MCG into a lovely counter-attacking team and that's pretty much what we're made up to be.

I honestly shudder to think what Allardyce would do with players such as Grealish and Gil.  They just aren't the kind of powerful players that he likes to go for.  Richards, Gueye and Gestede would absolutely fit the bill as the spine of our side under his sort of reign, which I have no real problem with, but our current "darlings" would suffer IMO.

Maybe Favre wouldn't fancy it.  Likely, he'll never be approached.  However, that's the sort of manager I'd like to see us go for.  People seem to think managers like Pulis or Allardyce mean guaranteed Premier League survival.  This simply isn't the case - although we'd certainly be a more organised team.

In short, Ancelotti/Klopp/unrealistic other options > progressive foreign coach > Allardyce-type > Pulis-type > Sherwood > McLeish.

[Stevo985]

 

You've misunderstood me. I didn't say Pulis and Moyes were short term managers. I said their clubs held onto them for too long. Your last paragraph agrees with my point, so I'm not really sure what you're debating.

It really doesn't. 

But you're correct that this debate doesn't seem to be going anywhere. 

It does. You've said you should employ a manager until he hits his ceiling. That's literally all I'm suggesting.

The short term comments is purely that the club need to realise that they don't necessarily have to look to employ a manager who is going to be here for years and years. If the manager they employ continues to improve us then they can employ him for as long as he carries on doing that.

I don't necessarily think the club should be thinking "let's find a manager who can be in charge for just 2 seasons and then we can move him on". But I do think they need to have it as a possibility if he hits that ceiling.

[AshVilla]

Favre would just be another pissing in the wind option

Who knows how good or bad he'd be we can't really afford to gamble on unknown quantities

Kevin Keegan? Stuart Pearce? 

Sure just pick the worst options on purpose eh why not Billy Davies or Neil Warnock

[Zatman]

Favre would just be another pissing in the wind option

Who knows how good or bad he'd be we can't really afford to gamble on unknown quantities

so you want Sam Allardyce, Tony Pulis or nothing?

Favre track record better than any recent Villa Manager since O'Leary

[GENTLEMAN]

Favre would just be another pissing in the wind option

Who knows how good or bad he'd be we can't really afford to gamble on unknown quantities

Kevin Keegan? Stuart Pearce? 

Sure just pick the worst options on purpose eh why not Billy Davies or Neil Warnock

I was going to suggest Big Sam but he appears to be going to Sunderland. 

[Stevo985]

We'd all rather get somebody better in. But how many better managers than Allardyce are available and will come to Villa? I bet the list is very very small.

Hard to say on "will come to Villa", but as I mentioned earlier, I'd rather see a foreign coach with new ideas come to the club.  Lucien Favre would be a coup and a half, for example.

Like I said. "will come to Villa".

Favre wouldn't.

If you expand our options to include managers on that level then suddenly Allardyce doesn't seem like a great choice. But the truth of the matter is managers like Favre are way above us. Why on earth would he come here?

I don't think we can say either way.  He went to relegation-favourites Borussia Monchengladbach so... why not Villa?  Plenty of financial clout (even with Lerner, we outspend most European teams), plenty of improvement to be made, potential platform for managing one of the bigger clubs etc. etc.  He fashioned MCG into a lovely counter-attacking team and that's pretty much what we're made up to be.

I honestly shudder to think what Allardyce would do with players such as Grealish and Gil.  They just aren't the kind of powerful players that he likes to go for.  Richards, Gueye and Gestede would absolutely fit the bill as the spine of our side under his sort of reign, which I have no real problem with, but our current "darlings" would suffer IMO.

Maybe Favre wouldn't fancy it.  Likely, he'll never be approached.  However, that's the sort of manager I'd like to see us go for.  People seem to think managers like Pulis or Allardyce mean guaranteed Premier League survival.  This simply isn't the case - although we'd certainly be a more organised team.

In short, Ancelotti/Klopp/unrealistic other options > progressive foreign coach > Allardyce-type > Pulis-type > Sherwood > McLeish.

I think the Grealish and Gil comment is lazy. Allardyce has worked with plenty of technically gifted players in his time and used them effectively.

All the rest of your post is saying is you'd rather we employed a better manager than Allardyce. The only thing we disagree on is whether we'd be able to attract one. I don't think we would. If we could then by all means go for it.

What I don't want is us to employ an up and coming coach because he MIGHT be better (foreign or not). No Allardyce isn't a guarantee of survival. But I think it's about as close as we're going to get.

[Stevo985]

Favre would just be another pissing in the wind option

Who knows how good or bad he'd be we can't really afford to gamble on unknown quantities

Kevin Keegan? Stuart Pearce? 

People seem to be confusing people who want PROVEN experience, with people who want ANY experience.

The two things aren't the same.

[AshVilla]

Favre would just be another pissing in the wind option

Who knows how good or bad he'd be we can't really afford to gamble on unknown quantities

so you want Sam Allardyce, Tony Pulis or nothing?

Favre track record better than any recent Villa Manager since O'Leary

Allardyce Moyes Tony Pulis or relegation

We don't have the luxury of appointing a "progressive" foreign manager with no proven experience at this moment in time

We could of had Fox ended the Sherwood experiment at the end of last season but now were already in the bottom 3 and will probably be 10 points adrift by christmas we will need someone to come in who knows the league and that can come in and hit the ground running

Of course my dream choice would be someone like Hiddink but as if he'd ever come here

Edited October 9, 2015 by AshVilla

[KHV]

We'd all rather get somebody better in. But how many better managers than Allardyce are available and will come to Villa? I bet the list is very very small.

Hard to say on "will come to Villa", but as I mentioned earlier, I'd rather see a foreign coach with new ideas come to the club.  Lucien Favre would be a coup and a half, for example.

Like I said. "will come to Villa".

Favre wouldn't.

If you expand our options to include managers on that level then suddenly Allardyce doesn't seem like a great choice. But the truth of the matter is managers like Favre are way above us. Why on earth would he come here?

I don't think we can say either way.  He went to relegation-favourites Borussia Monchengladbach so... why not Villa?  Plenty of financial clout (even with Lerner, we outspend most European teams), plenty of improvement to be made, potential platform for managing one of the bigger clubs etc. etc.  He fashioned MCG into a lovely counter-attacking team and that's pretty much what we're made up to be.

I honestly shudder to think what Allardyce would do with players such as Grealish and Gil.  They just aren't the kind of powerful players that he likes to go for.  Richards, Gueye and Gestede would absolutely fit the bill as the spine of our side under his sort of reign, which I have no real problem with, but our current "darlings" would suffer IMO.

Maybe Favre wouldn't fancy it.  Likely, he'll never be approached.  However, that's the sort of manager I'd like to see us go for.  People seem to think managers like Pulis or Allardyce mean guaranteed Premier League survival.  This simply isn't the case - although we'd certainly be a more organised team.

In short, Ancelotti/Klopp/unrealistic other options > progressive foreign coach > Allardyce-type > Pulis-type > Sherwood > McLeish.

I think the Grealish and Gil comment is lazy.

It is lazy, pretty sure Big Sam signed Youri Djorkaeff, Jay Jay Okocha, Nicolas Anelka to name but a few