The ISIS threat to Europe

[foreveryoung]

On 14/11/2015, 15:31:37, Seat68 said:

 

New politicians who don't bomb civilisations back to the kind of stone age conditions that breed stone age attitudes would make things a hell of a lot better. 

For example, prior to the first gulf war, Iraq had some of the best Universities in the middle east, it was proud of them. Good schools open up learning, education changes societies, it changes attitudes, it undermines religious extremism, it encourages equality of the sexes, a respect for sciences and attitudes of freedom of thought and expression. Bombing doesn't do that, bombing brings out the worst in societies, it sends people back to superstition, to hatred, to separatism and to extremism, that's true at both ends of the scale. OutByEaster

And then they allow them into Europe as refugees?

 

Edited November 15, 2015 by foreveryoung
Quote system not working

[StefanAVFC]

Just now, gharperr said:

like im with you with the whole pro-refugee thing but your argument kind of sucks. Its going to take quite a while to be able to move from A to B, get required capital needed to buy guns/bombs etc whilst not raising any kind of suspicion. And then to plan it all. And then theres potentially the attacks we dont hear about, or the ones who are suspicious as **** who havent carried out the attack out.

I'd agree with you, if there hasn't just been ONE attack.

For all of those people, you'd expect more than one attack if there were so many terrorists hid within them. Even accounting for your reasons above in bold.

[snowychap]

14 minutes ago, Ikantcpell said:

The swedish migration board thinks there are somewhere between 10.000-15.000.

And the friends i have in the police force who have to deal with them daily thinks there are more than that.

But hey, what do we know, you are snowychap from england, you know best for evryone.

A follow up on this.

According to The official visitor site of Malmö, Sweden:

Quote

Facts about Malmö

Malmö became a Swedish city in 1658

Malmö was first mentioned as a city in 1275 and received its coat of arms in 1437. Having been Danish, Malmö became Swedish in 1658 through the Treaty of Roskilde. The city had around 3,000 inhabitants at the time.

Sweden’s third city

(Population in January 2013)

Malmö: 307,758 (51% female and 49% male). The Malmö region: 670,394. Skåne: approx. 1.3 million. The Öresund region: approx. 3.8 million. Copenhagen: 559,440.

An expanding city

Malmö’s population increased for the twenty-eighth year in a row. In November 2013 Malmö had 312,400 residents. The population increased by almost 5,000 during 2012, and since the year 2000 the number of Malmö residents has grown by 50,000. In April 2011 Malmö passed the figure of 300,000 inhabitants, and by 2018 the city is expected to have approx. 338,400 inhabitants.

High level of inward migration

During 2012 19,800 people moved into Malmö and 17,300 moved out. Almost half of the newcomers were in the 20-29 age group. An additional 38,400 people moved within the city.

Young inhabitants

The average age of Malmö residents in 36. The average age in Skåne is 40, and in Sweden as a whole 41. 22% of the population in Malmö are below the age of 20, 63% are between 20 and 64m and 15% are pensioners aged 65 or more.

Malmö residents from 177 countries

31% or 94,700 of Malmö residents were born abroad, 50% of them female and 50% male. The largest groups were born in: Iraq 11,000, Denmark 8,000, former Yugoslavia 8,000, Poland 7,000 and Bosnia 6,000. The groups that saw the biggest increases in 2012 were those born in Iraq (+320), Syria (+220), Afghanistan (+180) and Turkey (+120). 60% of Malmö’s immigrants are Swedish citizens.

Page was Last updated May 26, 2015

Edited November 15, 2015 by snowychap

[gharperr]

13 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

I'd agree with you, if there hasn't just been ONE attack.

For all of those people, you'd expect more than one attack if there were so many terrorists hid within them. Even accounting for your reasons above in bold.

Whats the average time from thinking about an attack to an attack actually being carried out? Hypothetically, its important to know when you make this argument. If the standard time frame is usually 2 years  then it makes your argument weak. If its 10 days, it makes your argument strong. (ill be surprised if its less than 5 months tbh, pure guess though). Ofc that question is impossible to answer but a very important figure.

There could even be orders of top guys saying wait X amount of time before carrying out anything. 

Thats why imo, your argument is sucky and doesnt hold much weight. Still think the timeframe is far too short

Edit: You should judge it on attacks succesful + attacks failed (which may or may not be more 0). Not just attacks succesfull

Edited November 15, 2015 by gharperr

[foreveryoung]

On 14/11/2015, 15:31:37, Seat68 said:

 

Stefan, do you know how many get foiled everyday and are not in the media. Media in the UK would not report a foiled terrorist attack if it involved a Syrian refugee, the goverment wouldn't allow it.

I bet at this present time the powers that be in UK are working overtime, and it will only get worse now Merkel has invited the lot of emm into Europe, cause in reality, for terrorists its more than the best way in.

 

[snowychap]

1 minute ago, Nabby said:

LB and striker the priority now 

 

Wrong thread?

[rendelc]

18 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

I said this before but i'll say it again.

We've let in a tonne of immigrants into Europe. Hundreds of thousands of people.

There's been what, one attack since we started letting them in. How many months ago?

And even then, you can't say for sure that all 8 of the people who carried out the Paris attack came in with the refugees.

That, to me, makes me think that these refugees, are actually that. Refugees. And the fear of them is unfounded.

The jury is still out on this one .

[sharkyvilla]

1 minute ago, snowychap said:

Wrong thread?

These smugglers need to pull their fingers out and bring over someone with a decent left peg.  I'd say they should have a decent beard as well but I'm not sure I'd trust them.

[Chindie]

1 minute ago, foreveryoung said:

Stefan, do you know how many get foiled everyday and are not in the media. Media in the UK would not report a foiled terrorist attack if it involved a Syrian refugee, the goverment wouldn't allow it.

I bet at this present time the powers that be in UK are working overtime, and it will only get worse now Merkel has invited the lot of emm into Europe, cause in reality, for terrorists its more than the best way in.

 

Assertion.

I actually think the media would all over that like a rash. It's hypothetical though either way so rather pointless to debate.

We have no real evidence that refugees are any significant threat yet, even one of these attackers hasn't been confirmed as coming to Europe life that yet.

There's a nasty undertone in all this.

[chrisp65]

2 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

 Media in the UK would not report a foiled terrorist attack if it involved a Syrian refugee, the goverment wouldn't allow it.

 

100% bollocks

You think the government could or would even want to stop the Sun and the Mail reporting such a thing?

[tomaspg]

11 minutes ago, Ikantcpell said:

The swedish migration board thinks there are somewhere between 10.000-15.000.

And the friends i have in the police force who have to deal with them daily thinks there are more than that.

But hey, what do we know, you are snowychap from england, you know best for evryone.

not saying you are wrong in any way, but can i have a source for that? all i have i can find is numbers from 2013 and they state 25k illegal immigrants in the whole of sweden.

in regards to having friends in the police i completely understand how your friends feel. they deal with the harshest of situations everyday. but its worth mentioning that youre basing your view on the opinion of your friends, say you have 10 friends (counting high here) in the malmö police force, with(2014 numbers) 3784 police officers employed in skåne, it makes it a grand total of 0.2% of the total police force. say half of them work in malmö, 0.4%.

you dont have to live in sweden to understand the issues we are facing, and listening to snowychap or anyone elses opinion from the UK should IMO be ontop of our list. I lived in london for 8 years, i lived in prominent muslim, indian and pakistani communities, not once did i feel like i didnt belong or that i wasnt welcome, not one of my friends that were muslim or indian felt like they werent welcome, ofcourse there was the odd comment made by someone bellend, but basing opinion on solely first or second hand impressions is very dangerous.

[choffer]

21 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said:

I said this before but i'll say it again.

We've let in a tonne of immigrants into Europe. Hundreds of thousands of people.

There's been what, one attack since we started letting them in. How many months ago?

And even then, you can't say for sure that all 8 of the people who carried out the Paris attack came in with the refugees.

That, to me, makes me think that these refugees, are actually that. Refugees. And the fear of them is unfounded.

 

I know it's easy to blame refugees for what's happened but in reality the perpetrators are exactly the people these refugees have been running from.

[sharkyvilla]

The problem, like it or not, is that the refugee crisis makes it a lot easier to get people trained in Syria over to Europe.  We are relatively lucky in that we have a bit of water between us and the mainland and seem to have a decent idea of how to stop potentially dangerous people coming back from Syria.  The fact that only one successful attempt has happened shouldn't make us complacent as I would be extremely surprised if this isn't repeated elsewhere within a year.

[StefanAVFC]

1 minute ago, choffer said:

 

I know it's easy to blame refugees for what's happened but in reality the perpetrators are exactly the people these refugees have been running from.

Exactly.

Saw a great cartoon/comic portraying this very issue. I'll see if I can find it.

 

[snowychap]

4 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

Media in the UK would not report a foiled terrorist attack if it involved a Syrian refugee, the goverment wouldn't allow it.
 

How do you know this?

5 minutes ago, foreveryoung said:

cause in reality, for terrorists its more than the best way in.

Maybe, maybe not. I've read a few columns indicating just how much IS have been condemning Syrians who have left for a safe haven in Europe rather than for a supposed 'safe haven' under the 'care' of IS (guffaw). There is an argument to be made, from some opinions, that IS have such a problem with the west's generous reaction to Syrian refugees that they'd love to turn the official reaction about face.

Whether or not that's true is, I guess, as up for debate as all the rest of it but I don't doubt that, in this increasingly complicated world, some of it may well be close to the mark.

[tomaspg]

19 minutes ago, Michelsen said:

I just wanted to say, what an excellent post. 

thank you i have to admit, i probably havent given the question as much thought as i probably should have done until recently. im naive, i've always been living in the hope that it would simply solve it self, that people would come to their senses and not let this slip further to let more people get put in danger. but older and recent events has promted me to stick my head in a bit more further.

my dad is Iranian but hes lived in sweden for the last 30+ years, the **** eats more meatballs than the rest of our muncipality combined, so i've always seen him as swedish and i have never felt the need to raise the question until recently. We've never really spoken in depth about his past, about where he grew up and the situation at the time or what it was like for him to come here. Usually hes very outspoken, happy and thoughtful but when i bring the question up about his way over here it's a completely different person im speaking to, and honestly i dont want to know, he means the world to me and just the thought of him making the same trip as the refugees are making for themselves today is gut wrenching.

[foreveryoung]

17 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

100% bollocks

You think the government could or would even want to stop the Sun and the Mail reporting such a thing?

They wouldn't even know! Do you think MI5 would tell the Sun??

We are going a little far to back up beliefs now. We all know they don't tell us everything! The secret info comes from the ITK's surely we all know that

[gharperr]

21 minutes ago, choffer said:

 

I know it's easy to blame refugees (X) for what's happened but in reality the perpetrators (Y) are exactly the people these refugees (X) have been running from.

This statement is wrong no? People are blaming the perpetrators who the refugees have been running away from. Its just that its very difficult to tell who is who so people believe its not worth the risk of letting refugees in if you let in some perpetrators. They arnt blaming the refugees. (maybe there is some 34IQ EDL members that are)

Maybe im being too nitpicky and maybe i  missed your point. But surely you should get the other sides argument right no?

Edited November 15, 2015 by gharperr

[snowychap]

1 minute ago, foreveryoung said:

They wouldn't even know! Do you think MI5 would tell the Sun??

It depends how much they were paying now, surely?

[darrenm]

1 minute ago, choffer said:  

I know it's easy to blame refugees for what's happened but in reality the perpetrators are exactly the people these refugees have been running from.

Exactly.

Saw a great cartoon/comic portraying this very issue. I'll see if I can find it.

 

My post from a twitter update a few pages back.

Cant we just agree with all western media that Isis are now to be only referred to as 'little girls'?

When a term is used enough, it sticks. If the term isis is retired and little girls used exclusively to describe them, we de facto change their name. How macho and egotistical will it be for them to be in the group of little girls?