Paul Lambert

[VillaCas]

A pass for me (just) if we finish where we are now. 10th should be a realistic target for us for the rest of the season. I know it's not sexy or anything but after the terrible past 3 seasons it's certainly progress. I said this to a mate the other day who said "we should be 6th or 7th really". Who above us should we really be finishing above given the budget we currently operate under? Newcastle have a much better first 11 than we do, probably all their midfield players would walk into ours so I would rule them out even though there's always a feeling with them it will go tits up before long. Maybe with Saints having problems we can push them in the run IF we can string 2-3 wins together which we find near impossible.

 

But the bigger long term problems remain, lack of home wins at VP and terrible performances to go with them. Lambert needs to find a way to fix this otherwise that will spell the end for him here as no Aston Villa manager should really survive just winning 3-4 home league games a season.

 

Was your mate pissed at the time?....FFS 10th would be an achievement with our current finances

[VillaChris]

It's a funny one with Lambert and his signings...imo I'd give him a lifetime pass for just signing Benteke, a world class striker for 7m. Many managers have failed to find them for much greater prices. We were signing Heskey and Harewood combined for 7m not so long ago.

 

He also signed an international cb for 3m which isn't easy. Obviously Vlaar is injury prone so that's a reason the price was low but still had a good season and Okore was just plain unlucky so maybe Lambert can actually spot a centre half, left backs less so although hopefully third time lucky with Bertrand.

 

Where it all falls down is midfield....KEA's had some decent away games but he's just a plodder who should never start at VP. Westwood has been poor aswell but I think will come good again and he was signed for a million. Tonev looks awful thus far, he was supposed to provide the creative spark this year, oh dear. The rest were very low signings, it's like hammering Fergie for signing Bebe for 7m. Holt was a wtf signing but may chip in with an important goal or two in the run in. Hope to god we don't make it permanent as that will be Lambert losing it.

 

He needs to sign a number 10, two if one of them is Hoolahan as obviously with his age he isn't a realistic long term option.

[Big_John_10]

10th is a great position but if all you care about is current league position then you might as well not attend games or watch us on TV. You can get all your pleasure from the league table.

League position is good. Our points per game and performances have not been. The fact 10 teams have less points than us has in no way made poor performances and results better to watch.

Edited January 23, 2014 by Big_John_10

[Rovers13]

It's a funny one with Lambert and his signings...imo I'd give him a lifetime pass for just signing Benteke, a world class striker for 7m. Many managers have failed to find them for much greater prices. We were signing Heskey and Harewood combined for 7m not so long ago.

He also signed an international cb for 3m which isn't easy. Obviously Vlaar is injury prone so that's a reason the price was low but still had a good season and Okore was just plain unlucky so maybe Lambert can actually spot a centre half, left backs less so although hopefully third time lucky with Bertrand.

Where it all falls down is midfield....KEA's had some decent away games but he's just a plodder who should never start at VP. Westwood has been poor aswell but I think will come good again and he was signed for a million. Tonev looks awful thus far, he was supposed to provide the creative spark this year, oh dear. The rest were very low signings, it's like hammering Fergie for signing Bebe for 7m. Holt was a wtf signing but may chip in with an important goal or two in the run in. Hope to god we don't make it permanent as that will be Lambert losing it.

He needs to sign a number 10, two if one of them is Hoolahan as obviously with his age he isn't a realistic long term option.

Also seems to be able to spot a goalkeeper with brining Guzan back. The weirdest part is that he was a midfielder. Perhaps he'd rather spend on other areas and believes he can improve the midfielders he has because of that?

[dont_do_it_doug.]

Yeah mate fair enough.

It's a pity one or two others wouldn't also admit your second stated fault even when it's staring them in the face but there you go.

I agree actually. I think both sides of the debate are far too staunch in defending their opinions.

I stated a few pages ago I'm still firmly on the fence with Lambert and his potential, I'm not entirely sure which way I'll fall in time but I think he deserves that time still. I believe that was pre Liverpool, nothing has changed. He's a young manager still learning his way at the top level under a set of exceptionally difficult circumstances. Maybe there are dozens of managers out there could do better, I personally couldn't name them off the top of my head but I fully accept the possibility.

That said, whatever you say about Lambert, we're still in his division under those exceptional financial circumstances. The chances of us going down this season are reasonably slim I'd say and I certainly hope I'm right about that. So it's only fair to see that as an achievement under the much stated circumstances and given that we're 10th in the league right now to give him the time he's earning.

Whether that's good enough for Aston Villa as a whole is completely irrelevant. That's not his cross to bear. He's made mistakes, many of them, some dreadful ones, but he continues to fight and take his lumps and at times he's shown he CAN get this rag tag bunch of kids and misfits some of whom earn less money than I do in a week to play football. Win at football.

It's not "remarkable" no. But right now, it's "OK".

Edited January 23, 2014 by dont_do_it_doug.

[bannedfromHandV]

10th is a great position but if all you care about is current league position then you might as well not attend games or watch us on TV. You can get all your pleasure from the league table.

League position is good. Our points per game and performances have not been. The fact 10 teams have less points than us has in no way made poor performances and results better to watch.

What a daft comment, winning is basically everything in football now, ergo the league position is everything.

No one gives a shit about cup games essentially and we're nowhere near champions league so actually yeah, all I care about is the league position when all is said and done and I don't feel bad about that at all.

Bet you wouldnt be saying that if we were playing free flowing football in league 1

[Big_John_10]

What a daft comment, winning is basically everything in football now

Why's it daft? We agree. Winning is everything. Out of our 22 league games we've won 6 of them. I get enjoyment from results and performances not from knowing 10 teams have currently less points.

[villa-revolution]

Winning is not everything.

 

Supporting Aston Villa is.

[bannedfromHandV]

What a daft comment, winning is basically everything in football now

Why's it daft? We agree. Winning is everything. Out of our 22 league games we've won 6 of them. I get enjoyment from results and performances not from knowing 10 teams have currently less points.

You measure success against expectations, I don't feel a failure this year for not being managing director of the company I work for, I'm happy with my little promotion.

Much as I'm content with seeing villa in 10th currently as opposed to the 16th we finished in last season.

[TRO]

 

Yeah mate fair enough.

It's a pity one or two others wouldn't also admit your second stated fault even when it's staring them in the face but there you go.

I agree actually. I think both sides of the debate are far too staunch in defending their opinions.

I stated a few pages ago I'm still firmly on the fence with Lambert and his potential, I'm not entirely sure which way I'll fall in time but I think he deserves that time still. I believe that was pre Liverpool, nothing has changed. He's a young manager still learning his way at the top level under a set of exceptionally difficult circumstances. Maybe there are dozens of managers out there could do better, I personally couldn't name them off the top of my head but I fully accept the possibility.

That said, whatever you say about Lambert, we're still in his division under those exceptional financial circumstances. The chances of us going down this season are reasonably slim I'd say and I certainly hope I'm right about that. So it's only fair to see that as an achievement under the much stated circumstances and given that we're 10th in the league right now to give him the time he's earning.

Whether that's good enough for Aston Villa as a whole is completely irrelevant. That's not his cross to bear. He's made mistakes, many of them, some dreadful ones, but he continues to fight and take his lumps and at times he's shown he CAN get this rag tag bunch of kids and misfits some of whom earn less money than I do in a week to play football. Win at football.

It's not "remarkable" no. But right now, it's "OK".

 

 

.....thats just about where I sit.

[Morpheus]

This part I found most interesting as it carries the biggest contradiction of all in your above post and that is saying something.

Quite simply you say that Lambert hasn't done an about turn in policy because 'he was always going to bring in better players as finances improved.' Bertrand has been brought in on loan. Holt has been brought in on loan and how much more is Hoolahan going to cost in comparison to Helenius, or Tonev for example? You do see what i'm getting at here VillaCas? To clarify further if you don't.

Lambert is still shopping in the bargain basement bucket but he has now turned to experienced players with the same budget constraints. That would suggest would it not that this change in directive policy is nothing to do with increased finance from Lerner but everything to do with Lambert's original policy not working.

Inadvertently you have just proven my point for me.

So you are basing your whole "change of policy" schtick on Holt coming in on loan and Lamberts interest in Hoolahan??

- Lambert has always rated Hoolahan. As I clearly point out I believe Lambert would have bought in Hoolahan 18 months ago if he could have prised him away from Norwich which was very unlikely if not impossible at the time and certainly not for £1m

- He has obviously signed Holt as cover for 4 months whilst Kozak is out - why not? an experienced CF who we are not paying a fortune for

- Bertrand is 24?

Should we sign Hoolahan (which I hope we do) in your confused world one "over 30" signing in 17 would represent an "about turn in policy" would it? I'm certain that if Lambert could have bought in experienced, proven players for the same money as the "young and hungry" players he would have

Additionally, what was right for us in 2012 does not neccessarily continue to be the correct approach in 2014 - as circumstances and finainces change then so do requirements and possibilities

Lambert improved on McL by getting more points and a higher league position whilst utilising half the resources and is on track to deliver a mid-table finish this season. Clear improvement. With Hoolahan and a three or four additional quality players coming in the summer, I'm looking forward to a top half finish next season

As you've failed to respond to all my other points I'm taking it that you've conceded defeat on those

I

Ah! Changing tact again then VillaCas. Now using the numerical excuse. No matter, i will keep pursuing you on this until you admit to an obvious change in policy.

What is the overriding difference in Lambert's signings this window?

There has already been an article quoted on site where Lambert has actually stated he is targeting experienced players and if rumours are correct concerning an article by James Nursery no less, we're after another in Lescott.

If there hasn't been an obvious shift in transfer policy then why hasn't Lambert just continued to raid the lower and European leagues for young cheap players without Premiership experience?

You now say that Lambert would have previously brought in experienced players if he could yet we have brought in two players on loan and are chasing another whose wages and fee would have parity with who Lambert has already signed. Maybe you think that the loan facility was only available in this window to all managers including Lambert who rather than paying fees for players such as Tonev, Helenius, Bowery and Kozak couldn't utilise that loan facility previously because it's only available to him now?

One other point which you also might wish to consider?

How long did you think it was going to take Lambert to bring in these better players? I mean we've been fed all sorts of stories from you and others on site to have patience, think long term (stage 1, 2, 3, 4, 5) and to suffer the purchases of potential until Lambert got rid of the rest of the 'Bomb Squad' to then allow him to bring in more experienced players.

Well blow me down mate we're **** ahead of schedule, indeed way ahead. The 'Bomb Squad' is still partially intact with Bent and Given likely to return and we're, wait for it, signing experience players now!

It wouldn't be that this long term thinking has quite suddenly become short term with the likes of Holt joining the club?

Yes Holt is replacing the unfortunate Kozak but if Lambert's youthful inexperienced policy is still prevalent why not bring in on loan a much younger version of Holt from the continent or indeed closer to home? Or, actually switch his tactics a little in light of another unfortunate injury to Benteke and actually use the youthful strikers he has already purchased?

Pretty much shows your theory for what it is VillaCas. Weak, without substance, reactive and lacking in any real consistency, as it has been throughout our debates!

The reasoning for those deficiencies in your debate come down to the fact that you only have the confidence to return to site when the team puts in a good performance and then disappear when they don't which as results would suggest, is a regular occurrence.

Lastly I have responded to all your stated points previously and therefore had no wish to repeat those responses but your continual refusal to acknowledge or answer the one question which would decide our debate even when i've provided the stat would suggest, I'm afraid, an admittance of defeat on your part or put more simply, the obvious ranting of a Troll.

Edited January 24, 2014 by Morpheus

[mwj]

Winning is not everything.

 

Supporting Aston Villa is.

The talk of a loser.

[Big_John_10]

What a daft comment, winning is basically everything in football now

Why's it daft? We agree. Winning is everything. Out of our 22 league games we've won 6 of them. I get enjoyment from results and performances not from knowing 10 teams have currently less points.

You measure success against expectations, I don't feel a failure this year for not being managing director of the company I work for, I'm happy with my little promotion.

Much as I'm content with seeing villa in 10th currently as opposed to the 16th we finished in last season.

But like I said if your joy comes from our position in the league why bother going to games or watching us on TV? The enjoyment comes from results and performances. Usually they go hand in hand with a decent league position but this year everyone from 9th down have been poor.

Look at houlliers season, we finished 9th but as a season it was awful to watch for large parts and not one I can say I actually enjoyed much of.

Edited January 24, 2014 by Big_John_10

[Stevo985]

^^^ I think the frustration from some people comes because last year Lambert was getting criticised (not by you) for good performances but not picking up any points. At that time it seemed to be only points and league position that mattered.

 

This season people are criticising him for the opposite (which, fwiw, I believe has happened as a direct result of last season). Now it seems to be "it's all very well getting points, but it's performances that really matter"

Edited January 24, 2014 by Stevo985

[Big_John_10]

^^^ I think the frustration from some people comes because last year Lambert was getting criticised (not by you) for good performances but not picking up any points. At that time it seemed to be only points and league position that mattered.

This season people are criticising him for the opposite (which, fwiw, I believe has happened as a direct result of last season). Now it seems to be "it's all very well getting points, but it's performances that really matter"

I can see that side of it but really although we're 10th we're not picking up a great deal of points and our results haven't been great. We still average 1.07 points a game and in our last 10 games we've picked up 9 points. We've only won 6 games all season.

I don't think its a case of people changing their argument against Lambert I just think while league position is great, performances and results have still been generally poor.

[dn1982]

If we finish 10th at the end of this season it will have been a good season. It will be because we have been better than the teams below us. How good or bad they are doesn't count! If Swansea get relegated will you all be saying yeah but they played some cracking stuff I'd rather be them?? We know this team and this set of players can play good football but up until the last 120 min it's been awful for 3 months. I don't know why maybe PL wanted to be tight and negative so we got the points base early so we wasn't in the same predicament as last year but hoped our strikers would get us through. Injuries and out of form put paid to that and we had a turgid time. Hopefully now with every one fit key players back in the team and scoring we can play the sort of football we are capable of. He is obviously looking to get the missing link to our home form as we struggle to break down teams who sit deep but as Liverpool showed if we pass and move at speed we can tear anyone apart. If It was easy to play good football and get good results everyone would be doing it. Last year was about staying up this year was about consolidation like it or not we are doing what was set out to do. We all want free flowing football and IMO that will be the next step. I believe we will see better players coming in as a sqaud is in place thus helping our creativity at hone. If we can get a cheap AM this window we could have a very good end of season as our home games are nearly all winnable games. There are plenty of reasons to moan about Lambert but there is also plenty of reasons to congratulate him on. Nothing is ever black and white.

[dont_do_it_doug.]

Paragraphs or tl;dr

[slowandlow]

^^^ I think the frustration from some people comes because last year Lambert was getting criticised (not by you) for good performances but not picking up any points. At that time it seemed to be only points and league position that mattered.

 

This season people are criticising him for the opposite (which, fwiw, I believe has happened as a direct result of last season). Now it seems to be "it's all very well getting points, but it's performances that really matter"

 

cannot speak for anyone else but I don't think we were putting in "good performances but not picking up any points" last season - we were shite and picking up few points, then played a lot better in the last 3 months or so and started picking up more points

 

as for the opposite happening this season - I think we have accumulated the same amount of points this year as in the corresponding fixtures last year (less if you use the results against promoted teams as proxies for results against relegated teams from last season)

 

hopefully we can keep a comfortable distance between us and the bottom 3 both in terms of points and league position to prevent a 4th year of panic

[TRO]

Winning is not everything.

 

Supporting Aston Villa is.

 

judging by the gates this year, we have pretty well cracked the second one.

 as for first one.....but winning is "something"

[TRO]

^^^ I think the frustration from some people comes because last year Lambert was getting criticised (not by you) for good performances but not picking up any points. At that time it seemed to be only points and league position that mattered.

 

This season people are criticising him for the opposite (which, fwiw, I believe has happened as a direct result of last season). Now it seems to be "it's all very well getting points, but it's performances that really matter"

 

The " holy grail" is both.....you need both Results and performances.

 

They indicate slightly different things.

 

you can win and be very lucky....which can indicate that you might not have the same luck in the next game, suggesting a fans tentative  approach going in to the game.

 

you can have a really good performance and lose....which can indicate better luck next time with a prevailing wind a win next time is on the cards, suggesting a fans upbeat approach to win next time and that can't wait to get down to the ground approach.

 

They are both important bits of criteria, but sometimes get used in the wrong context.

 

PS  I have never been a results and nothing else matters man....I look for a bit more/deeper.

Edited January 24, 2014 by TRO