Marka Ragnos Posted March 31, 2015 VT Supporter Share Posted March 31, 2015 Very few black people have gotten jobs with top clubs. Some of them have been spectacular failures. No one has really been a tremendous success. Does that mean that black people make bad managers? No it's too small a study. Why don't more black people become managers? There are lots of reasons. Here are maybe three of them. I might not agree with every single bit of your excellent post but you make loads of great points. I think you really begin to get at the complexity of the issue. There are no quick fixes. Even the "Rooney Rule" is a bandage on a gaping wound, it only treats a symptom but doesn't get down to brass tacks (mixing metaphors awfully here). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 The problem with society today is that when you fail at something then it's always somebody elses fault, and never your own. The Race card explosion of the last 20 years is a result of that. So your analysis then is that society is perfect and nobody is ever discriminated against in any way? Useful. If I was an owner of a football club I wouldnt employ Barnes even if he was green. Why do people assume business men who run multi million pound football clubs look at the colour of skin when making the decision who will be best to increase their profit? Surely if you were racist and owned a shop and had two cvs handed in, one by a rubbish, lazy white person with no experiance and a highly qualified and eager to work black person you would chose the latter. Otherwise you wouldnt stay in business for too long. That isn't remotely how you would expect a racist business owner to behave. I don't even know how you would think that? Yeah, the American South during Jim Crow, South Africa during Apartheid, a litany of examples of racist small business owners grudgingly employing black workers because they just couldn't refuse, I don't think so. Here's how a racist shop owner would actually behave - they'd hire the rubbish white guy, and then moan that their falling profits were the result of multiculturalism damaging society. David James managed a team in the Indian league I think so I reckon he'll try his hand at some point. Not often that goalkeepers make decent managers though. He still does manage them. In fact, he's player-manager. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest av1 Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 I know it sounds like they're just raising the race card, but it is weird how there are so many black players yet so few coaches and managers. I'm struggling to think of a logical reason for it. The amount of black players is irrelevant, the only figure that can be used to determine an imbalance, is the amount of black player's that enrol on their coaching course's. I don't know know what those figures are, would be interested in finding out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Anyone watch the John Barnes programme tonight? It was a great hour of televsion for someone who wasn't around in that era so couldn't quite remember how good a player he actually was. SGT also made some good contributions. However Barnes saying black managers once they get sacked....come on that's forgive the phrase lazy. This season Chris Powell was sacked by Charlton and within a couple of months was back in at Huddersfield. Chris Hughton has lost his job a few times now and gets another job fairly swiftly. The ratio of black to white players isn't 50/50 so I don't see why if there's 92 clubs people seem to think there should be 40 odd black managers in jobs, there's probably not even that number applying. If Chris Ramsey dosen't get the QPR job full time, who's to say a club lower down the leagues won't give him a chance now people actually know who he is. With Barnes it would've been better him being an assistant to Dalglish rather than the other way round at Celtic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coda Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Didn't see the programme. Did it mention him getting booed at Wembley while playing for England? That was excruciating and I don't know what motivated it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Chris Ramsey dosen't get the QPR job full time, who's to say a club lower down the leagues won't give him a chance now people actually know who he is. Ramsey is an interesting one, especially seeing as he could still be sacked if they stay up, he's now had a sniff at the big time, does he accept roles further down the football league? There's also every danger they could go down he gets sacked and strolls in to villa park as a coach because that's what he enjoys, do people start pointing fingers and asking why he isn't still a manager and claim that it because he's black? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted March 31, 2015 Share Posted March 31, 2015 Didn't see the programme. Did it mention him getting booed at Wembley while playing for England? That was excruciating and I don't know what motivated it. Yes that was covered. Barnes accepted he never really played well for England bar the Maracana wonder goal but simply said the England tactics didn't suit him, race wasn't mentioned on that one. It's ironic but ITV tend to make excellent sports documentaries, probably superior to what the BBC come up with and yet their live coverage is so dire. Sports life stories should be shown on the main channel anyway, think the last series eventually turned up on there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrDuck Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Didn't see the programme. Did it mention him getting booed at Wembley while playing for England? That was excruciating and I don't know what motivated it. It was motivated by Barnes playing like complete crap in just about every appearance he made for England. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oaks Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Didn't see the programme. Did it mention him getting booed at Wembley while playing for England? That was excruciating and I don't know what motivated it. It was motivated by Barnes playing like complete crap in just about every appearance he made for England.. And kept getting picked. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest av1 Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Didn't see the programme. Did it mention him getting booed at Wembley while playing for England? That was excruciating and I don't know what motivated it. It was motivated by Barnes playing like complete crap in just about every appearance he made for England.. And kept getting picked. A England tradition still in evidence today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coda Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 Just looked into Barnes getting booed and an article by Jimmy Greaves criticising Barnes (and questioning his loyalty) for supporting West Indies cricket is mentioned as influencing the crowd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicho Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 I have no doubt that racism still exists within the sport and decisions in some places I do not think it is as wide spread as some suggest (naive perhaps). I did not witness nor have I peersonally experienced racism against me in the way Barnes did and this may now play a part in the way he perceives football and life in general which is maybe understandable. However as two of the biggest commentators on black inequality are Sol Cambell who can't be arsed to go do some lower league coaching and Barnes who has shown himself to be a poor manager in his appointments I take what they say with a fist of salt. The playing ratio of black players to White is not 50 50 so why expect the mangers to not reflect that demographic andI think the Rooney rule is just positive discrimination. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ml1dch Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 The playing ratio of black players to White is not 50 50 so why expect the mangers to not reflect that demographic andI think the Rooney rule is just positive discrimination. I don't think that anybody expects the ratio to be 50/50. But when 25% of players are non-white and around 5% of managers are, you see nothing out of sync about that? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mantis Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 (edited) The playing ratio of black players to White is not 50 50 so why expect the mangers to not reflect that demographic andI think the Rooney rule is just positive discrimination. I don't think that anybody expects the ratio to be 50/50. But when 25% of players are non-white and around 5% of managers are, you see nothing out of sync about that? When you consider that until the last couple of decades the vast majority of football players in this country were white and the fact that most managers are former players (with many bouncing around from job to job because they're a "name") it seems fairly in sync to me. If the situation is still the same in 20 years or so then I think you'd have more of a point there. Edited April 1, 2015 by Mantis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kurtsimonw Posted April 1, 2015 Share Posted April 1, 2015 The playing ratio of black players to White is not 50 50 so why expect the mangers to not reflect that demographic andI think the Rooney rule is just positive discrimination. I don't think that anybody expects the ratio to be 50/50. But when 25% of players are non-white and around 5% of managers are, you see nothing out of sync about that? When you consider that until the last couple of decades the vast majority of football players in this country were white and the fact that most managers are former players (with many bouncing around from job to job because they're a "name") it seems fairly in sync to me. If the situation is still the same in 20 years or so then I think you'd have more of a point there. Agreed. To quantify by using current day stats when we still have managers who were managing in the mid 90s is very flawed. It's also even harder to try and quantify without knowing things like how many black players have got the correct badges? How many have applied for jobs? Were they realistically the best option for the job? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingman Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Don't see what all the fuss is about, If the likes of Ince, Barnes, Ramsey, Powell, Curle etc were any good and won cups, titles or even challenged for promotion they will be in work. Nothing to do with the colour of their skin!.. See Hughton!.. You're a flop at management Barnes and so are most of the above, so just deal with it and stop playing the race card ffs! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaChris Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Ramsey playing the race card now. Now firstly QPR could've gone and got a proper manager for the rest of the season rather than promote from within, they didn't have to appoint him. And as rubbish as they are (thankfully for us) 8 defeats from 9 isn't a record to fill you with confidence is it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marka Ragnos Posted April 3, 2015 VT Supporter Share Posted April 3, 2015 Why do people get so damn angry about this? Why is it always ad hominems against blacks who speak up and their friends and not the issues they raise? Why can't the focus be on trying to address the issue. The stats speak for themselves. There's a problem. Why is that so hard to accept? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mic09 Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Why do people get so damn angry about this? Why is it always ad hominems against blacks who speak up and their friends and not the issues they raise? Why can't the focus be on trying to address the issue. The stats speak for themselves. There's a problem. Why is that so hard to accept? Yes. How many women are formula one drivers? Is there a rule why they cant be? Give it another 20 years and there will be plenty more black managers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa4europe Posted April 3, 2015 Share Posted April 3, 2015 Why do people get so damn angry about this? Why is it always ad hominems against blacks who speak up and their friends and not the issues they raise? Why can't the focus be on trying to address the issue. The stats speak for themselves. There's a problem. Why is that so hard to accept? Because of "stats" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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