Black managers face "hidden resistance"

[Rob182]

How did superstars Chris Powell and Chris Hughton get jobs then?

[TrentVilla]

Let's not pretend that racism does not exist in daily life, so why do people think football is different? It's not inconceivable that football in England is full of subconscious prejudice.

Has anyone actually suggested that racism doesn't exist in football?

Yes. Read between the lines...."If they were good enough....".

So that's a no then.

[momo]

So that's a no then.

Way to go, mr. Privileged Boss.

[TrentVilla]

Way to go, mr. Privileged Boss.

 

Eh?

[TrentVilla]

Superstars like Paul Ince and John Barnes are not good enough examples of black managers getting a chance. They got to manage because they were so much better players than most others. That is the threshold black managers need to overcome. They need to be much better than the white. Look at Brian Deane. Why did he not get a chance in England? Why is he managing a shit team in Norway, and doing remarkably well?

 

So were Ince or Barnes on a different level to Sol Campbell? I wouldn't say they were so why were they given opportunities yet Campbell is denied opportunities by the colour of his skin? Something doesn't add up there. I would love to know which managerial jobs Campbell has applied for, I suspect that could be quite telling.

 

As for Brian Deane, here is what he had to say when asked if he felt his colour stood in his way of a job in England.

 

 

He did not apply for sufficient managerial posts at home to detect whether he was personally affected. "I would hope not," he says. "It's very important that things are fair and doors are open for everybody. I don't want to have to rely on somebody saying I should be given a chance. I want to be judged on merit."

 

A believer in mandatory coaching qualifications, he also appreciates the benefits of an extended academic education. "Quite a few Norwegian players have degrees," he says. "It's something I'd like to see more of in English football."

A diversion into academia led him to Sarpsborg. After hanging up his boots, Deane was appointed director of football at Leeds University, helping its teams enjoy unprecedented success.

Alongside Ian Burchnall, now his assistant in Norway, he also established an international academy for football and education. It was during a Scandinavian recruitment drive that he learnt of Sarpsborg's vacancy.

Three exhaustive interviews later the board had bought into Deane's thoughtful, articulate vision and he was en route to Ostfold County. Having regarded an interlude at Benfica as a highlight of his playing career it felt good to be an expatriate again but a little English mentoring has proved beneficial.

So the example of Deane doesn't much strike me as an example of the colour glass ceiling some are trying to say results in the current low ratio of black managers. If Deane does well I've no doubt he will get a job in England.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/aug/24/premier-league-briane-deane-sarpsborg

[Con]

If Brian Deane does well I'd welcome him at Villa.

 

I would like us to be managed by a former striker who was successful at the top level and not affiliated with one of the big clubs.

[momo]

So the example of Deane doesn't much strike me as an example of the colour glass ceiling some are trying to say results in the current low ratio of black managers. If Deane does well I've no doubt he will get a job in England.

 

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2013/aug/24/premier-league-briane-deane-sarpsborg

So, are you are saying that racism doesn't exists or are you asking me if anyone here on this thread has said that racism doesn't exist? I already answered the last question, but will write it differently here. If you compare the criteria for a non-white applicant to that of a white skinned applicant, you will easily see that the the non-white needs to tick extra boxes outside the form to get a job, they need to be extra special. Everybody wants to get a job on merit, but the problem with racism is that when two people with different skin color (white and non-white) are equal in every setting, the white will be picked all the time. Brian Deane wont get a job in England on merit only, and he knows it, but probably wishes it was differently.

 

When people here claim that black managers can't get a job in England because

1) They suck as managers compared to white managers, then that is racist statement.

Or

2) To put it the way you guys say it, if they are good enough they will get hired (they are not as good as the white, apparently). That is equally a racist statement, because the implication is that black managers are worse than white managers.

Those two sentences mean exactly the same. So are you claiming that black managers are not good enough? Is it because they are black, or is it because they are unqualified? If you can't see the problem with system, then you are the problem. And saying that since the one black manager who got a chance sucked, that must mean the other black managers are equally bad, is also racism.

 

The issue isn't hiring managers who are not good enough, the issue is considering managers for a job and then deciding to give it to the best man or woman, regardless of skin color, disability, religious views etc.

 

I can really go on and on about racism and the way people who has never experienced it talk and write about it, even if they have the best intentions and see themselves as color blind. It is very much a subconscious issue. I hope I didn't sound too mean. I am sorry if I did.

Edited September 28, 2014 by blandy

[Mantis]

You talk about "experience" but I expect none of us here have experience with applying for managerial positions at professional football clubs.

[Con]

I wondered whether clubs are so totally biased toward hiring defensive managers and that since black players are most common in attacking positions whether they are discriminated because of their footballing philosophy (attacking). This discrimination could be in addition to any racial discrimination.

 

However, on testing it I found that although black players are most commonly found further up the field, in all positions except goalie black players were currently more than 25% of players. There are so many black players in defensive positions today that at least for the next generation there should be enough black players with the "right" philosophy to become top coaches.

 

When I say "right" philosophy, I'm not saying I agree with a defensive coaching philosophy. However it is a fact that 85% of Premier League coaches were either defenders or midfielders. 

 

 

 

% Black by position

 

Goalies: 2%

Defenders: 28%

Midfielders: 36%

Fowards: 40%

 

 

Method: Used fantasy premier league pictures (and google when the picture was blank). 56 white forwards and 37 black forwards. Out of 181 defenders,  51 are black. Of 225 midfielders, 81 are black.  Of 60 listed goalies one was black.

 

 

Managers (Premier League) and their playing position (which could be an indicator to their footballing philosophy).

 

 

Mourinho - central midfield

Koeman - defender

Pellegrini - central defender

Wenger - midfielder

Monk - central defender

Lambert - defensive midfielder

Van Gaal - midfielder

Pochettino - central defender

Warnock - winger

Pearson - central defender

Alladyce - central defender

Rodgers - defender

Martinez - defensive midfielder

Bruce - central defender

Poyet - midfielder

Hughes - forward

Irvine - winger

Redknapp - midfielder

Dyche - defender

Pardew - midfielder

 

Percentages

Defender: 9 ... 45%

Midfielder: 8 ... 40%

Winger: 2 ... 10%

Forward: 1 ... 5%

 

 

[TrentVilla]

So, are you are saying that racism doesn't exists or are you asking me if anyone here on this thread has said that racism doesn't exist? I already answered the last question, but will write it differently here. If you compare the criteria for a non-white applicant to that of a white skinned applicant, you will easily see that the the non-white needs to tick extra boxes outside the form to get a job, they need to be extra special..

 

 

I think it is perfectly obvious from what I've already posted that I'm not saying racism doesn't exist. You can write what you've posted differently as many times as you wish, it won't change anything, it isn't that I don't understand your view simply that I don't agree with it. I don't accept that a non-white applicant for a managers job needs to tick extra boxes.

 

Obviously racism exists within football sadly as it does in almost all walks of life but I simply do not accept that there is unilateral racism across 92 professional clubs in the country. Individual racist owners/directors? Yes without question but not across the board, there is little or no evidence to support such a view and there is no evidence to support your conclusion quoted above other than suspicion. 

 

 

Brian Deane wont get a job in England on merit only, and he knows it, but probably wishes it was differently.

 

Well that rather remains to be seen and the interview I quoted earlier would suggest he thinks differently to how you are trying to present.

 

 

When people here claim that black managers can't get a job in England because

1) They suck as managers compared to white managers, then that is racist statement.

Or

2) To put it the way you guys say it, if they are good enough they will get hired (they are not as good as the white, apparently). That is equally a racist statement, because the implication is that black managers are worse than white managers.

 

You guys? You seem to be suggesting that anyone who doesn't agree with you including myself is racist which is something I really don't appreciate and find quite offensive. I've not expressed anything even remotely close to a racist point of view, I'm not in any way racist as my posts on topics like Suarez and Terry have shown and I'm getting tired of the little digs you seems to be incapable of resisting while discussing this topic.

 

 

 

The issue isn't hiring managers who are not good enough, the issue is considering managers for a job and then deciding to give it to the best man or woman, regardless of skin color, disability, religious views etc.

 

I completely agree, which is one of the reasons I'm against the Rooney rule. That isn't the same as not wanting black managers or thinking in some way that they are inferior. If the next manager of Villa was black I wouldn't careless.

 

Just as with players, skin colour isn't a factor that matters to me.

 

 

I can really go on and on about racism and the way people who has never experienced it talk and write about it, even if they have the best intentions and see themselves as color blind. It is very much a subconscious issue. I hope I didn't sound too mean. I am sorry if I did.

 

Well actually, yes you did because you keep accusing me and others that don't agree with you of being racist at some level which you've done again in this last line.

 

You don't know me from Adam, you don't have a clue what my views are because rather than reading what I actually post you are, I assume because of personal experiences, projecting views and attitudes on to me that are plain wrong.

 

I'd welcome more black managers in the game I just don't want to see positive discrimination through the Rooney rule because I don't think it fits with the culture of hiring managers in the game and I don't think a box ticking exercise is the way to change attitudes if indeed they need changing. And I'm sure they do in some clubs, but I think they will be in the minority not the majority.

 

But I will bow out of this topic now I think as it seems if you aren't in support of the Rooney rule you are effectively John Terry.

[Nicho]

 

 

 

Let's not pretend that racism does not exist in daily life, so why do people think football is different? It's not inconceivable that football in England is full of subconscious prejudice.

Has anyone actually suggested that racism doesn't exist in football?

 

Yes. Read between the lines...."If they were good enough....".

 

So that's a no then.

 

Does positive discrimination count

[momo]

 

So, are you are saying that racism doesn't exists or are you asking me if anyone here on this thread has said that racism doesn't exist? I already answered the last question, but will write it differently here. If you compare the criteria for a non-white applicant to that of a white skinned applicant, you will easily see that the the non-white needs to tick extra boxes outside the form to get a job, they need to be extra special..

 

 

I think it is perfectly obvious from what I've already posted that I'm not saying racism doesn't exist. You can write what you've posted differently as many times as you wish, it won't change anything, it isn't that I don't understand your view simply that I don't agree with it. I don't accept that a non-white applicant for a managers job needs to tick extra boxes.

 

Obviously racism exists within football sadly as it does in almost all walks of life but I simply do not accept that there is unilateral racism across 92 professional clubs in the country. Individual racist owners/directors? Yes without question but not across the board, there is little or no evidence to support such a view and there is no evidence to support your conclusion quoted above other than suspicion. 

Ok, your opinion.

 

Brian Deane wont get a job in England on merit only, and he knows it, but probably wishes it was differently.

 

Well that rather remains to be seen and the interview I quoted earlier would suggest he thinks differently to how you are trying to present.

Ok, I just think an English manager/player wants to manage/play in Premier League, and for a manager to get there is to show himself in the lower leagues in England, not a candidate for relegation in Norway.

 

When people here claim that black managers can't get a job in England because

1) They suck as managers compared to white managers, then that is racist statement.

Or

2) To put it the way you guys say it, if they are good enough they will get hired (they are not as good as the white, apparently). That is equally a racist statement, because the implication is that black managers are worse than white managers.

 

You guys? You seem to be suggesting that anyone who doesn't agree with you including myself is racist which is something I really don't appreciate and find quite offensive. I've not expressed anything even remotely close to a racist point of view, I'm not in any way racist as my posts on topics like Suarez and Terry have shown and I'm getting tired of the little digs you seems to be incapable of resisting while discussing this topic.

I obviously must have meant some guys, not you guys, and not you Trent. I did not specifically aim this post at you, and I think you know it and just use this 'you'-word to attack me instead of really understand what I meant. It is not about agreeing with me. I am merely stating that I feel it is harder for black managers to get hired than it is for white, and I get that from reading the article opening post of this thread:

The PFA says about 18% of players on their coaching courses are black or from other ethnic minorities.

Around 25% of players in the professional game are non-white

So, they obviously are good enough, but still wont get hired. So to say "if they are good enough they will get hired", when they clearly are good enough and still wont get hired, is very much wrong. It is just a sentence that is too easy to say without thinking what it really means. That is why I put the questions up there, not to say that you or anyone is racist. Generally I hate talking about skin colors and ethnicities, because even if I try to be careful, something will be misunderstood, especially on a message board.

 

The issue isn't hiring managers who are not good enough, the issue is considering managers for a job and then deciding to give it to the best man or woman, regardless of skin color, disability, religious views etc.

 

I completely agree, which is one of the reasons I'm against the Rooney rule. That isn't the same as not wanting black managers or thinking in some way that they are inferior. If the next manager of Villa was black I wouldn't careless.

 

Just as with players, skin colour isn't a factor that matters to me.

Good to agree on something.

 

The issue isn't hiring managers who are not good enough, the issue is considering managers for a job and then deciding to give it to the best man or woman, regardless of skin color, disability, religious views etc.

 

I completely agree, which is one of the reasons I'm against the Rooney rule. That isn't the same as not wanting black managers or thinking in some way that they are inferior. If the next manager of Villa was black I wouldn't careless.

 

Just as with players, skin colour isn't a factor that matters to me.

Yes.

 

 

I can really go on and on about racism and the way people who has never experienced it talk and write about it, even if they have the best intentions and see themselves as color blind. It is very much a subconscious issue. I hope I didn't sound too mean. I am sorry if I did.

 

Well actually, yes you did because you keep accusing me and others that don't agree with you of being racist at some level which you've done again in this last line.

 

You don't know me from Adam, you don't have a clue what my views are because rather than reading what I actually post you are, I assume because of personal experiences, projecting views and attitudes on to me that are plain wrong.

 

I'd welcome more black managers in the game I just don't want to see positive discrimination through the Rooney rule because I don't think it fits with the culture of hiring managers in the game and I don't think a box ticking exercise is the way to change attitudes if indeed they need changing. And I'm sure they do in some clubs, but I think they will be in the minority not the majority.

 

But I will bow out of this topic now I think as it seems if you aren't in support of the Rooney rule you are effectively John Terry.

 

Wow...that was a rather disproportionate response and your accusations about me is way out of the line. I never said you were a racist, nor did mean to call anybody here a racist. I specifically said unconscious prejudice in the post you first replied to, and again in the quote you have here. All people in the world are guilty of being prejudice one way or another, read this from Harvard. And I was not even talking about you, I was just talking in general.

 

You wanted me to elaborate on my stance, and my stance is that is equally wrong to say that black managers are not good enough (in football) as it is to say women bosses are not good enough (in business). Maybe it was wrong of me to use the 'racist' word, but something is really wrong when you see the stats presented in the article from the opening post and the way it get brushed aside while it is easily stated that ....well...they are not good enough.

 

By the may, my personal experiences is non of your business. And it is not fine to use quotes out of context to make your point. This is a forum, and I might spell words wrong and write things too quickly without looking it over. I never stated that I was for the Rooney rule, nor did I state that you were a footballer.

 

And one last thing:

Research conducted for the NASUWT has found that the careers of many black and minority ethnic teachers are blighted by stereotypes and negative assumptions held by employers. Their commitment, ability and leadership potential may be overlooked and they have to work harder just to get noticed.

Edited October 2, 2014 by momo

[Mantis]

What has teaching got to do with football? Let's not try and pretend that football is just the same as any other profession because it clearly isn't.

[LondonLax]

What has teaching got to do with football? Let's not try and pretend that football is just the same as any other profession because it clearly isn't.

 

You think football is less racist than everyday life?

[Mantis]

 

What has teaching got to do with football? Let's not try and pretend that football is just the same as any other profession because it clearly isn't.

 

You think football is less racist than everyday life?

 

I think football is more results-driven than most everyday jobs.

[villa4europe]

 

What has teaching got to do with football? Let's not try and pretend that football is just the same as any other profession because it clearly isn't.

 

You think football is less racist than everyday life?

 

 

personally i do

 

i certainly think its less homophobic too

 

i know that it exists but in comparison to the everyday life i think its less accepted, not sure if its because the mob mentality has gone the other way from 20 years ago, if someone in the holte shouted something racist then i think about 4/5 blokes would let him know about it, someone in the street or in the office says something racist then i doubt anything would be said about it

[Eames]

What has teaching got to do with football? Let's not try and pretend that football is just the same as any other profession because it clearly isn't.

They get about the same amount of time off a year for starters....... 

[bannedfromHandV]

If Brian Deane does well I'd welcome him at Villa.

 

I would like us to be managed by a former striker who was successful at the top level and not affiliated with one of the big clubs.

 

Let's get Grant Holt back then.

 

What a strange strange comment

[kurtsimonw]

 

 

What has teaching got to do with football? Let's not try and pretend that football is just the same as any other profession because it clearly isn't.

 

You think football is less racist than everyday life?

 

I think football is more results-driven than most everyday jobs.

 

Yeah, particularly once you get higher up in the footballing World too. I hardly think owners are going to give up the chance for mllions by not hiring the best candidate all because of his ethnicity. 

 

 

 

What has teaching got to do with football? Let's not try and pretend that football is just the same as any other profession because it clearly isn't.

 

You think football is less racist than everyday life?

 

 

personally i do

 

i certainly think its less homophobic too

 

i know that it exists but in comparison to the everyday life i think its less accepted, not sure if its because the mob mentality has gone the other way from 20 years ago, if someone in the holte shouted something racist then i think about 4/5 blokes would let him know about it, someone in the street or in the office says something racist then i doubt anything would be said about it

 

Absolutely. Especially in the UK. I'm sure there's still some backward thinking fans, but in terms of staff/players there's such a focus on it that even if it isn't stamped out, at least the racists are going to keep their ridiculous views to themselves.

[TrentVilla]

Wow...that was a rather disproportionate response and your accusations about me is way out of the line. I never said you were a racist, nor did mean to call anybody here a racist. I specifically said unconscious prejudice in the post you first replied to, and again in the quote you have here. All people in the world are guilty of being prejudice one way or another, read this from Harvard. And I was not even talking about you, I was just talking in general.

 

You wanted me to elaborate on my stance, and my stance is that is equally wrong to say that black managers are not good enough (in football) as it is to say women bosses are not good enough (in business). Maybe it was wrong of me to use the 'racist' word, but something is really wrong when you see the stats presented in the article from the opening post and the way it get brushed aside while it is easily stated that ....well...they are not good enough.

 

By the may, my personal experiences is non of your business. And it is not fine to use quotes out of context to make your point. This is a forum, and I might spell words wrong and write things too quickly without looking it over. I never stated that I was for the Rooney rule, nor did I state that you were a footballer.

 

How is it disproportionate exactly? Regardless of your intentions or otherwise, you have in your own words accused people in this thread of making a racist statement and appeared to be grouping me in with them. Fair enough, if you are now saying that isn't what you meant and you weren't meaning to include me then fine but its what you posted, so perhaps you should take more care of what you post because I certainly haven't intentionally misinterpreted anything you've posted.

 

You posted the following accusing people of making a racist statement and appeared to be putting me in that group which I found offensive. I've not made any accusations about you just simply responded to what you have posted, you have yourself admitted you were wrong to use the word racist so perhaps you shouldn't be so surprised it caused offence and a response. Especially after you already had one dig with the "Way to go, mr. Privileged Boss." comment which I asked you to clarify and you decided not to.

 

 

To put it the way you guys say it, if they are good enough they will get hired (they are not as good as the white, apparently). That is equally a racist statement, because the implication is that black managers are worse than white managers.

 

As for your personal experiences you suggested that you had experienced racism unlike others commenting on the topic so don't then complain when I respond. Let me remind you what you posted, which quite clearly suggests you have personal experience.

 

 

I can really go on and on about racism and the way people who has never experienced it talk and write about it, even if they have the best intentions and see themselves as color blind. It is very much a subconscious issue. I hope I didn't sound too mean. I am sorry if I did.

 

And

 

 

All I need to say that if you have never experienced prejudice, than you don't know what you are talking about.

 

 

There is no difference in me presuming your experience(s) than there is to you presuming to know what others experience(s) are or what their attitudes or supposed prejudices behind what they post. I've not used your posts out of context in any way.

 

I've no desire to get into some sort of on going feud with you or argument on this but you've had a few digs and have continued to accuse me of things in this latest post and quite simply you are wrong. I'm not racist or prejudice and I don't think other posters in this thread are either just because like me they aren't convinced there is wide spread discrimination in the 92 board rooms of this country.

 

So how about we get back to the topic now?

 

So, the Rooney rule. No you haven't said you are for it but you've not stated you weren't either and given the general view expressed in your posts it suggests that you would be in favour. Is that not the case?