Black managers face "hidden resistance"

[kurtsimonw]

The whole "You haven't experienced it, so you can't comment" type attitude is shit. By that logic, you have not worked in a football boardroom, so stop pretending like you think you know what's going on inside them.

[PaulC]

I think Gordon Taylor is out of order stirring things up. You can point to a lack of black managers at this current time but I think if you're good enough you'll get the job no matter what colour you are. 

[dont_do_it_doug.]

How many people, from all walks of life are genuinely racist? In this country and specifically against black people seeing as that is the subject. And I don't mean those who occasionally tell "jokes" that could offend, or even those who use might use racist comments as a weapon. I mean GENUINELY racist, to the point where they would allow it to affect their own lives in a negative way... 5%? Con maths perhaps but I can't imagine it being much higher than that. If be surprised if it was that high. Would you imagine that percentage is higher or lower amongst football league chairmen, people who are for the most part successful people?

So maybe 2/3 racist chairmen out of 92? I'd personally love it to be 0 of course, but maybe if the PFA spent more time on encouragement rather than blame then we'd see more black managers plying their trade.

If more black players go into management then I think that is good for the game generally, but like all managers with the caveat that they are good enough. They should not be judged either way based on the colour of their skin.

[PaulC]

Good post. I'd say 5% was a little high. I think it differs with age groups. People over the age of say 65 who were brought up in a predominantly white England, its higher than that. 

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

The whole "You haven't experienced it, so you can't comment" type attitude is shit.

 

No, it's true. If you're not a minority, and you haven't experienced racism, you should keep your mouth shut and listen to what they have to say rather than say 'oh it mustn't be true because blah blah blah blah', or give your own shitty anecdotal evidence about how non-racist people are when it isn't blatant, in your face racism that permeates society, but a structural bias toward white people. Same with sexism, homophobia etc. Listen to the people who live with it every day and not the opinions of wealthy white blokes like Mourinho.

[kurtsimonw]

I never said to not listen to what they say. I also never said it doesn't exist. What is true, though, is that none of us are in a footballing boardroom, so just as what you think about our "shitty evidence" having not experiencing things, the same can be said of just assuming that club chairman aren't hiring a black guy because of his skin.

[Mantis]

 

The whole "You haven't experienced it, so you can't comment" type attitude is shit.

 

No, it's true. If you're not a minority, and you haven't experienced racism, you should keep your mouth shut and listen to what they have to say rather than say 'oh it mustn't be true because blah blah blah blah', or give your own shitty anecdotal evidence about how non-racist people are when it isn't blatant, in your face racism that permeates society, but a structural bias toward white people. Same with sexism, homophobia etc. Listen to the people who live with it every day and not the opinions of wealthy white blokes like Mourinho.

 

What about minorities that haven't experienced racism?

 

Or are we going down the "only minorities can be victims of racism" route?

[kidlewis]

racism certainly isn't exclusive to minority groups though. Racism is racism.

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

I must have forgot to include the part where I gave a **** about white people being called crackers or summat.

[villa4europe]

 

The whole "You haven't experienced it, so you can't comment" type attitude is shit.

 

No, it's true. If you're not a minority, and you haven't experienced racism, you should keep your mouth shut and listen to what they have to say rather than say 'oh it mustn't be true because blah blah blah blah', or give your own shitty anecdotal evidence about how non-racist people are when it isn't blatant, in your face racism that permeates society, but a structural bias toward white people. Same with sexism, homophobia etc. Listen to the people who live with it every day and not the opinions of wealthy white blokes like Mourinho.

 

 

i agree, but then i see sol campbell who has no coaching badges claiming that gary neville who has lots of coaching badges got a coaching position ahead of him because of the colour of his skin

 

his opinion on it carries about as much weight as mourinho's IMO

 

there are plenty of people who's opinions on the subject i would listen to and respect, unfortunately the most vocal on the subject, who i would say are paul ince, sol campbell and jason roberts, aren't included, i dont respect any of their opinions

[villa4europe]

and jose's comments today if anyone missed them - 

 

“There is no racism in football. If you are good, you are good. If you are good, you get the job. “If you are good, you prove that you deserve the job. Football is not stupid to close the doors to top people. If you are top, you are top.”

 

first sentence he'll get pelters for because he is wrong, which unfortunately will overshadow everything else he said which is right

[Mantis]

I must have forgot to include the part where I gave a **** about white people being called crackers or summat.

So do you only care about racial abuse if it's directed towards non-whites?

[kurtsimonw]

There's also the same problem that's true to anyone. Experience. Some are likely overlooked because they're an unknown entity. Certainly when it comes to the higher leagues. There's a lot of money involved to be making gambles on managers with no Football League experience. It's the same problem a lot of younger people face in any walk of life, can't get experience because they can't get job, can't get a job because they have no experience and so on. Obviously everyone starts somewhere, but this is certainly a factor IMO.

 

Chris Powell got a caretaker job because he was a cheap option, although he had no experience and he didn't keep the job full time. He got the Charlton job because he's Chris Powell and then got the Huddersfield job on merit. He's fortunate enough to get himself on the ladder. 

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

 

I must have forgot to include the part where I gave a **** about white people being called crackers or summat.

So do you only care about racial abuse if it's directed towards non-whites?

 

 

I think it is foolish and misguided to equate the two in a society which is structured to favour white people and white men in particular. A white person being racially abused is not the same as a black person being racially abused in that context. Similarly men that complain that 'women can be sexist too' don't understand the issue.

Edited October 3, 2014 by CarewsEyebrowDesigner

[Mantis]

 

 

I must have forgot to include the part where I gave a **** about white people being called crackers or summat.

So do you only care about racial abuse if it's directed towards non-whites?

 

 

I think it is foolish and misguided to equate the two in a society which is structured to favour white people and white men in particular. A white person being racially abused is not the same as a black person being racially abused in that context. Similarly men that complain that 'women can be sexist too' don't understand the issue.

 

It really depends on the specific situation and quite frankly I find the idea that society is "structured" to favour whites is a load of rubbish - that may have been the case in the past but not so much now. That's not say there isn't racism (which by the way can work both ways), but I don't think it's that set in stone. A black person being racially abused isn't automatically worse than a white person being racially abused and vice versa.

 

But yeah, I think dismissing one form of racism just because it appears to be less common than another is racist in itself. The sooner people stop trying to ignore certain forms of racism or belittle those that have suffered it just because it's perceived as less common the sooner racism will go away.

 

 

 

On topic but I find it quite ironic that Kick it Out came out today and criticised the managerial hiring processes of English clubs as being "not based on merit". It was just last year that its director suggested that clubs do exactly that by using some form of "positive" discrimination when it comes to hiring staff.

Edited October 3, 2014 by Mantis

[kurtsimonw]

 

 

I must have forgot to include the part where I gave a **** about white people being called crackers or summat.

So do you only care about racial abuse if it's directed towards non-whites?

 

 

I think it is foolish and misguided to equate the two in a society which is structured to favour white people and white men in particular. A white person being racially abused is not the same as a black person being racially abused in that context. Similarly men that complain that 'women can be sexist too' don't understand the issue.

 

I don't think you can generalise when it comes down to an individual level, though. The idea that a man being victim of sexual abuse or a white person being victim of racist abuse "just isn't the same" is an attitude I hope is not reflected on a large scale.

[dont_do_it_doug.]

I must have forgot to include the part where I gave a **** about white people being called crackers or summat.

So do you only care about racial abuse if it's directed towards non-whites?

I think it is foolish and misguided to equate the two in a society which is structured to favour white people and white men in particular. A white person being racially abused is not the same as a black person being racially abused in that context. Similarly men that complain that 'women can be sexist too' don't understand the issue.

Surely it depends exclusively on the context. Words mean nothing without context. I have experience sexism myself, I had been accused of acting a certain way or thinking certain things because "I'm a man and that's what all men are like". It's not up to you to decide how I feel about that.

[TrentVilla]

As I've previously posted in this thread, while I recognise and accept racism exists within football despite what Jose says I just don't accept it is so wide spread so as to create a glass ceiling for black players or ex players in the game. And further despite often repeated claims to the contrary there is little or no evidence of the existence of such a 'hidden resistance'.

 

The statistics though show that without a doubt ex black players are under represented within management, 5 black managers in 92 last season and 2 currently.

 

So that got me thinking, if there isn't a hidden resistance what other explanations are there for the low number of black managers.

 

What occurred to me is that looking at the number of black managers in the league is perhaps the wrong place to start. So taking it back a few steps, the current proportion of non white players in the Football League is 25% yet the percentage of non white former players currently undertaking their coaching qualifications is 18%.

 

What I would like to know is how these two figures are changing, if at all. Is the proportion of non white players fairly static or increasing/decreasing and the same in regard the number of non white former players on coaching courses. Because I think that is the place to start with any serious examination of this issue.

 

That disparity of figures needs looking at because part of the answer lies within it. If the gap between the two figures is closing then that is great and it follows in my opinion that in time there will be more black managers. If it isn't then that is something that the FA, the PFA and the Football League need to address.

 

I would suggest that the continued public comments from the likes of Sol Campbell and John Barnes are actually counter productive in this aim because rather than shinning a light on a problem it is at least possible that they are actually helping to create or maintain one. If racism isn't widespread at boardroom level then they, along with others, could and I repeat could be perpetuating a myth which is actually discouraging black former players from even trying to become a coach/manager.

 

To me that is at least something worthy of consideration and perhaps focus would be better directed on the likes of Ince, Hughton and Powell.

 

The other thing that occurred to me is that football management is a pretty closed shop, I'd love to know out of the 92 current managers how many of them are in their first managerial job. Further, on average how many debut managers are given a chance per season within the 92 clubs.

 

The reason that could be significant is that experience and a track record (of whatever level or success) seems to go a long way, managers bounce from club to club. This to me seems to be true of most managers, irrespective of colour, Paul Ince being an example of someone who despite performance has continued to be given opportunity. 

So if the number of former black players undertaking coaching qualifications is low (only 18% of the total) and is significantly lower than the proportion of black players (7% lower) then surely it follows that there will be significantly fewer black managers. A situation then exacerbated by the closed shop mentality of football and what I suspect is a very low proportion of new blood of any race or nationality into the pool.

 

These seems to be, to some extent at least supported by the fact that those like Ince, Powell, Hughton and even Barnes who have made the transition although in the minority have each held more than one job (Barnes has only held one within English football). If there really was a wide spread board room resistance to black managers within English football then I find it unlikely that once these examples entered the manager pool that they would continue to get jobs with different clubs.

 

For some reason, these alternatives or factors are never raised or seemingly considered by the media or those within the game which I think is a failing in itself.

 

I don't think anyone is arguing that something isn't wrong somewhere, 2 in 92 just doesn't reflect our society or our game but call me naive but I just don't accept the charge of the 'hidden resistance'. 

So for me talking about a hidden resistance is just as inaccurate and equally simplistic as saying 'they will get the chance if good enough'

 

Its a more complex issue without any single causation and I think some of the factors I've detailed above form part of the cause just as much as the odd racist director or owner who are undoubtable out there.

 

At this moment in time its a problem but a problem that is unlikely to be resolved because those involved in the game and the debate, are in my opinion at least, asking the wrong questions and going about things in entirely the wrong way.

 

Change is needed it but the change that is needed isn't the Rooney rule because quite frankly the idea that forcing racist chairman to interview non white candidates for jobs in the hope of change is stupid. Utterly stupid. If wide spread racism exists then boards and chairman would simply play lip service to the rule rather than actually recruit non white candidates.

 

Anyway, thats my thoughts on it.

[bannedfromHandV]

I see it's reared it's head on sky again, some geezer complaining that shaun newton can't get an interview so therefore, English football is totes racist.

[momo]

 

Wow...that was a rather disproportionate response and your accusations about me is way out of the line. I never said you were a racist, nor did mean to call anybody here a racist. I specifically said unconscious prejudice in the post you first replied to, and again in the quote you have here. All people in the world are guilty of being prejudice one way or another, read this from Harvard. And I was not even talking about you, I was just talking in general.

 

You wanted me to elaborate on my stance, and my stance is that is equally wrong to say that black managers are not good enough (in football) as it is to say women bosses are not good enough (in business). Maybe it was wrong of me to use the 'racist' word, but something is really wrong when you see the stats presented in the article from the opening post and the way it get brushed aside while it is easily stated that ....well...they are not good enough.

 

By the may, my personal experiences is non of your business. And it is not fine to use quotes out of context to make your point. This is a forum, and I might spell words wrong and write things too quickly without looking it over. I never stated that I was for the Rooney rule, nor did I state that you were a footballer.

 

How is it disproportionate exactly? Regardless of your intentions or otherwise, you have in your own words accused people in this thread of making a racist statement and appeared to be grouping me in with them. Fair enough, if you are now saying that isn't what you meant and you weren't meaning to include me then fine but its what you posted, so perhaps you should take more care of what you post because I certainly haven't intentionally misinterpreted anything you've posted.

 

You posted the following accusing people of making a racist statement and appeared to be putting me in that group which I found offensive. I've not made any accusations about you just simply responded to what you have posted, you have yourself admitted you were wrong to use the word racist so perhaps you shouldn't be so surprised it caused offence and a response. Especially after you already had one dig with the "Way to go, mr. Privileged Boss." comment which I asked you to clarify and you decided not to.

 

 

To put it the way you guys say it, if they are good enough they will get hired (they are not as good as the white, apparently). That is equally a racist statement, because the implication is that black managers are worse than white managers.

 

As for your personal experiences you suggested that you had experienced racism unlike others commenting on the topic so don't then complain when I respond. Let me remind you what you posted, which quite clearly suggests you have personal experience.

 

 

I can really go on and on about racism and the way people who has never experienced it talk and write about it, even if they have the best intentions and see themselves as color blind. It is very much a subconscious issue. I hope I didn't sound too mean. I am sorry if I did.

 

And

 

 

All I need to say that if you have never experienced prejudice, than you don't know what you are talking about.

 

 

There is no difference in me presuming your experience(s) than there is to you presuming to know what others experience(s) are or what their attitudes or supposed prejudices behind what they post. I've not used your posts out of context in any way.

 

I've no desire to get into some sort of on going feud with you or argument on this but you've had a few digs and have continued to accuse me of things in this latest post and quite simply you are wrong. I'm not racist or prejudice and I don't think other posters in this thread are either just because like me they aren't convinced there is wide spread discrimination in the 92 board rooms of this country.

 

So how about we get back to the topic now?

 

So, the Rooney rule. No you haven't said you are for it but you've not stated you weren't either and given the general view expressed in your posts it suggests that you would be in favour. Is that not the case?

 

I not going to respond to most of this, because I don't care right now. Just don't assume anything about my personal experiences...you're going to get it wrong anyway.

 

I am not so sure about the Rooney rule, so I can't say yes or no. It is easy to say that clubs don't interview, but actually most of them do. Even Villa, when they hired Lambert, had interviews with other candidates that we weren't supposed to know about. If the Rooney rule will come into effect, I don't know how such interviews are going to be kept a secret, like they are now. Who can control that a black manager has been interviewed, and if a black person is very light skinned or Asian, is (s)he considered black or white?

 

In general, I am positive when minorities (or poor people) get those chances in life, because most of the time they are either too poor to attend the good schools, or find it difficult to get an entry position in a company, even if they are qualified enough.