MagicMushroom Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 (edited) Anyone worked out which one was the lie yet? Waived interest or must charge competitive interest on loans from trust. Can't both be true Found out he could not compete, gave up, then waives his portion of the dept caused by himself to enable an easier sale, then says its a kind gesture. Just LOL! Despite Dougs puplic bum sucking, ive learnt that he is seething over the way the club is being run, and has let it been known....... On the flipside, hes also seething over how cheap he sold us to the yank prat, for! Gospel truth Good ole MR Bicycle kick Edited March 7, 2013 by MagicMushroom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 Whilst there is a team called Aston Villa, wearing claret and blue there is something to support. It's Villa til I die, not Villa unless Randy invests, or Villa til the Championship.fantastic. The thing is you said we are partially responsible for the decline and I'm afraid your point that "whilst there's a team called Villa etc etc" misses the point about football today. It's no longer about 50000 turning up to watch shirts hanging on a line. Hasn't been for a while. It's about giving people a product and we haven't given a product for a few seasons now. Your issue is not with fans of this club. Your issue is with modern football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ender4 Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 Anyone worked out which one was the lie yet? Waived interest or must charge competitive interest on loans from trust. Can't both be true It can i guess. The trust was charging interest (at Libor rate), and this season they have waived the interest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lp_villa830 Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 Whilst there is a team called Aston Villa, wearing claret and blue there is something to support. It's Villa til I die, not Villa unless Randy invests, or Villa til the Championship.fantastic. The thing is you said we are partially responsible for the decline and I'm afraid your point that "whilst there's a team called Villa etc etc" misses the point about football today. It's no longer about 50000 turning up to watch shirts hanging on a line. Hasn't been for a while. It's about giving people a product and we haven't given a product for a few seasons now. Your issue is not with fans of this club. Your issue is with modern football. That's bull, the only reason its turned that way is because the fans have let it happen. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted March 7, 2013 Moderator Share Posted March 7, 2013 Lerner has put truckloads of money into Aston Villa, money he won't be seeing again. He has made poor decisions in his time here and wasted a lot of that money leaving us in a poor position. It is one thing to critisize him on his poor decision making but it doesn't make sense to claim he is like Ellis, taking money out of the club. They are both frustrating owners but they are frustrating for very different reasons. Not actually accurate that though is it, now I'm not saying he is like Ellis because that man never put his hand in his pocket once. That isn't the same as saying that Lerner hasn't taken money out of the club when quite clearly he has. Lerner has loaned the club money from the family trust and he has charged interest on that money, now it might be a low rate of interest and it might be less than he can get elsewhere but he has still charged interest. Sure he has waved that this year but he hasn't in previous years so he has taken money from the club, he has taken interest payments on the money he has loaned the club. Then add to that the 'management fee's' that have been charged against the club, I believe it was £7m the other year. I would also imagine he has paid himself a salary, althought that management fee may well be that and I'm sure he has charged expenses against the club as well. So to say he hasn't taken money out of the club simply isn't true. As for the money he has invested in the club, I really get tired of this notion that it was some sort of gift to the club. There are a few posters who persist with this line of argument yet there is absolutely nothing and I do mean nothing to suggest that the money he has invested aside from loans is intended to be a gift. That he has invested that money and may or may not get it back really doesn't come in to it, it very much remains to be seen what value he gets for the club if he ever sells. So we don't know if he will see a return on that money, one thing is for sure I'm fairly certain he wouldn't be willing to sell the club tomorrow for the amount he paid for it. You can try and claim it is a gift as much as you want but there is nothing and I do mean nothing to suggest that this is the case and plenty to suggest that it isn't. So no Lerner isn't the same as Ellis but it doesn't mean he is much better either. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigel Posted March 7, 2013 VT Supporter Share Posted March 7, 2013 Still on the bright side it helps his tax payments Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Raver50032 Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 (edited) Whilst there is a team called Aston Villa, wearing claret and blue there is something to support. It's Villa til I die, not Villa unless Randy invests, or Villa til the Championship. fantastic. The thing is you said we are partially responsible for the decline and I'm afraid your point that "whilst there's a team called Villa etc etc" misses the point about football today. It's no longer about 50000 turning up to watch shirts hanging on a line. Hasn't been for a while. It's about giving people a product and we haven't given a product for a few seasons now. Your issue is not with fans of this club. Your issue is with modern football. That's bull, the only reason its turned that way is because the fans have let it happen. I'm with Richard on this and my views are well aired on this forum. Fair play if you think it is bull... and you are right to a point... bit of both I think... It's consumerism in it's purest form. Fuelled by Sky and big sponsorship and rich club owners... Footballers are not role models any more either - even museum quality Beckham (allegedly) and Giggs are love rats. Have balls, will root. But I'm not paying PL prices, or Championship prices to watch a team... a club, just making up the numbers. Life's too short. It really is, and we all have a lot of other things we can spend on. I certainly do. If Randy can't make us competetive again, he should sell to someone who can. Otherwise, we're just pissing 450+ quid on season tickets out of habit, just making up the numbers. That really would be fans making it happen I guess... Being prepared to just go through the motions, just like their club. Where does it end and what is the point? It comes back to blind love and 'supporters/customers' (whatever) being better than the next one. That's if you have the money for a ticket and a shirt, and a pie, and program, and a pen, and a bike, and a keyring and a DVD and a bar of chocolate... oh, and a pair of shorts and socks... and that's just for the adult. Hmmm, on reflection I guess it sounds like 'spoiled brat' syndrome... That's the world we live in now. When the Premier League first started in August 1992, there were a lot of teams in that division, including us, including Norwich even, who had a chance of winning it. Even Leeds were in with shout as defending champions, along with perenniel success stories like Arsenal and Liverpool. Chelsea and Man City were around, but showing little of their future money-bags. With changing goal posts, Villa have missed the boat to keep up. Those times we finished 2nd and 4th not being deemed good enough at the time to qualify for the Champions League. Our league is fast becoming a Scottish Premier League, albeit with more teams in it. The top two smell as if they are going to be there until I die, then it's a 'fascinating' battle for 3rd and 4th... and an even more 'exciting' relegation conundrum... We had a go at it and got 6th position thrice in three years. Not building on it and throwing opportunities away - Rapid Vienna (twice), CSKA Moscow (Sonic's game) and of course being 3rd and nine points clear of Arsenal only to get to March and end up 6th!!!! Spectopular failure... and yes, that is a word I picked up watching TV with my daughter. Two Wembley capitulations, but nice days out... Now we appear to be bust again. Maybe that's Villa to a tee. Say what you like, the way things are right now and the behaviours I interpret from the club, seriously, there's more chance of us playing in League 1 in five years than there is of us qualifying for Europe. I've been criticised in the past for being a 'half empty' type of person. Maybe I am... But I've turned my back on England (pissed their 'golden generation' away, believing their own hype) and my world certainly didn't stop to watch Man U versus Real. I couldn't have cared less what happened. I heard that there was some controversial 'sending off incident...' Was Phil Dowd reffing? I'm out of love with the game, simples. No Mojo... If the fans made it happen, it may be the fans that turn it back again. Need the financial bubble to burst first. But right now, meh... Edited March 7, 2013 by Raver50032 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 Lerner has put truckloads of money into Aston Villa, money he won't be seeing again. He has made poor decisions in his time here and wasted a lot of that money leaving us in a poor position. It is one thing to critisize him on his poor decision making but it doesn't make sense to claim he is like Ellis, taking money out of the club. They are both frustrating owners but they are frustrating for very different reasons. Not actually accurate that though is it, now I'm not saying he is like Ellis because that man never put his hand in his pocket once. That isn't the same as saying that Lerner hasn't taken money out of the club when quite clearly he has. Lerner has loaned the club money from the family trust and he has charged interest on that money, now it might be a low rate of interest and it might be less than he can get elsewhere but he has still charged interest. Sure he has waved that this year but he hasn't in previous years so he has taken money from the club, he has taken interest payments on the money he has loaned the club. Then add to that the 'management fee's' that have been charged against the club, I believe it was £7m the other year. I would also imagine he has paid himself a salary, althought that management fee may well be that and I'm sure he has charged expenses against the club as well. So to say he hasn't taken money out of the club simply isn't true. As for the money he has invested in the club, I really get tired of this notion that it was some sort of gift to the club. There are a few posters who persist with this line of argument yet there is absolutely nothing and I do mean nothing to suggest that the money he has invested aside from loans is intended to be a gift. That he has invested that money and may or may not get it back really doesn't come in to it, it very much remains to be seen what value he gets for the club if he ever sells. So we don't know if he will see a return on that money, one thing is for sure I'm fairly certain he wouldn't be willing to sell the club tomorrow for the amount he paid for it. You can try and claim it is a gift as much as you want but there is nothing and I do mean nothing to suggest that this is the case and plenty to suggest that it isn't. So no Lerner isn't the same as Ellis but it doesn't mean he is much better either. To be fair to Lerner, which isn't something I do very often, he's written off ALL of the interest from all of the loans. It was never actually paid in any case, but rolled up and added to the amount owed, and now he's written off it is true to say that the interest never cost us anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CI Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 Before people get all dewy eyed over Doug, for years wasn't he by some distance the highest Paid Chairman in British football Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lp_villa830 Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 Fair play if you think it is bull... and you are right to a point... bit of both I think... It's consumerism in it's purest form. Fuelled by Sky and big sponsorship and rich club owners... Footballers are not role models any more either - even museum quality Beckham (allegedly) and Giggs are love rats. Have balls, will root. I don't think footballers in general have ever been role models, you get the odd exception in the past as you probably do now. But I'm not paying PL prices, or Championship prices to watch a team... a club, just making up the numbers. Life's too short. It really is, and we all have a lot of other things we can spend on. I certainly do. If Randy can't make us competetive again, he should sell to someone who can. Otherwise, we're just pissing 450+ quid on season tickets out of habit, just making up the numbers. That really would be fans making it happen I guess... Being prepared to just go through the motions, just like their club. Where does it end and what is the point? It comes back to blind love and 'supporters/customers' (whatever) being better than the next one. That's if you have the money for a ticket and a shirt, and a pie, and program, and a pen, and a bike, and a keyring and a DVD and a bar of chocolate... oh, and a pair of shorts and socks... and that's just for the adult. Hmmm, on reflection I guess it sounds like 'spoiled brat' syndrome... That's the world we live in now. That's a bit like the chicken and the egg though isn't it and is the biggest problem with the modern fan. To be competitive we need more income and to get more income we need more fans to show a sustained interest. Not everyone needs to buy a season ticket and a million items of merchandise every year. Our attendances the past 2 years are down about 4,000 each game at a time when the club needs as much money as it can get. Staying away is only hurting the club that people claim to love more. When the Premier League first started in August 1992, there were a lot of teams in that division, including us, including Norwich even, who had a chance of winning it. Even Leeds were in with shout as defending champions, along with perenniel success stories like Arsenal and Liverpool. Chelsea and Man City were around, but showing little of their future money-bags. With changing goal posts, Villa have missed the boat to keep up. Those times we finished 2nd and 4th not being deemed good enough at the time to qualify for the Champions League. Our league is fast becoming a Scottish Premier League, albeit with more teams in it. The top two smell as if they are going to be there until I die, then it's a 'fascinating' battle for 3rd and 4th... and an even more 'exciting' relegation conundrum... We had a go at it and got 6th position thrice in three years. Not building on it and throwing opportunities away - Rapid Vienna (twice), CSKA Moscow (Sonic's game) and of course being 3rd and nine points clear of Arsenal only to get to March and end up 6th!!!! Spectopular failure... and yes, that is a word I picked up watching TV with my daughter. Two Wembley capitulations, but nice days out... Now we appear to be bust again. Maybe that's Villa to a tee. Say what you like, the way things are right now and the behaviours I interpret from the club, seriously, there's more chance of us playing in League 1 in five years than there is of us qualifying for Europe. I've been criticised in the past for being a 'half empty' type of person. Maybe I am... But I've turned my back on England (pissed their 'golden generation' away, believing their own hype) and my world certainly didn't stop to watch Man U versus Real. I couldn't have cared less what happened. I heard that there was some controversial 'sending off incident...' Was Phil Dowd reffing? I'm out of love with the game, simples. No Mojo... If the fans made it happen, it may be the fans that turn it back again. Need the financial bubble to burst first. But right now, meh... I understand that frustration and its the sort of thing that i would think the Clubs you refer to would love to read. The more "consumers" drawn away from the clubs smaller than them only increases their power base at the top. They, Sky and the major sponsors don't care about the smaller teams it is only the fans of all 92 clubs in the Football League that can keep them going, as soon as it suits them and they think they can get away with it the big clubs will break off into a closed shop European Super League. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
danceoftheshamen Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 (edited) Doug was a nightmare.. I swear on the odd occasion we finished 2nd under his tenure & he refused to go the final mile to give us a real chance to win the thing was all down to him not having to have the financial pressure of lifted expectations. But this i have to say is now quite remarkably, just as bad, for different reasons, but just as bad. Edited March 7, 2013 by danceoftheshamen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagicMushroom Posted March 7, 2013 Share Posted March 7, 2013 Apparently, Talksport had a professer to go over our accounts, and guess what he found? That our wage bill is running at 87% of our income compared to 85% when Oniel left. So for me, thats argument over. Its time to force these lying bastards out of Villa Park and quickly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pelle Posted March 8, 2013 Share Posted March 8, 2013 So Talksport is the new fountain of truth? Good to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briny_ear Posted March 8, 2013 Share Posted March 8, 2013 Anyone know the name of this professor? I wonder if the problem is in large part a drop in income - if that's fallen faster than the wage bill, then obviously the proportion of wages to income will go up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeadlyDirk Posted March 8, 2013 Share Posted March 8, 2013 Apparently, Talksport had a professer to go over our accounts, and guess what he found? That our wage bill is running at 87% of our income compared to 85% when Oniel left. So for me, thats argument over. Its time to force these lying bastards out of Villa Park and quickly. You can interpret this how you want, but what you've got to remember is that gate receipts are alarmingly down by somewhere between 15 and 25%, so the wage bill conundrum is relative to our income. I'm sure if we had the gates that we had just before O'Neil left then Wages to Income percentage would be less. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pelle Posted March 8, 2013 Share Posted March 8, 2013 I also have to ask why they needed a professor to do that? Isn't that something that almost every accountant (if that is the right word) could do given the numbers. Like, "there are the incomes, there are the wages. Do the math!"? I think our own Risso are more than emough qualified to do it if he got the numbers, and I don't think he's a professor. And why would they do that on Villa? Or did they do it on every club in the PL? Or at least some other clubs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MagicMushroom Posted March 8, 2013 Share Posted March 8, 2013 So Talksport is the new fountain of truth? Good to know. Haha, i know lol. They apparently looked into QPR's aswell. Thing is, forget them. It was some Proffesor from Liverpool university whom studied the figures, so im inclined to believe him. But yes, Talksport lol. I guess we will see a few more interpretations over the next week or so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quizme Posted March 8, 2013 Share Posted March 8, 2013 "I'm out of love with the game, simples. No Mojo... If the fans made it happen, it may be the fans that turn it back again. Need the financial bubble to burst first. But right now, meh..." I agree with this, it has almost gotten me to the point that I´m hoping for us to get relegated, only to see some proper football. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AstonMartin82 Posted March 8, 2013 Share Posted March 8, 2013 (edited) Apparently, Talksport had a professer to go over our accounts, and guess what he found? That our wage bill is running at 87% of our income compared to 85% when Oniel left. So for me, thats argument over. Its time to force these lying bastards out of Villa Park and quickly. You can interpret this how you want, but what you've got to remember is that gate receipts are alarmingly down by somewhere between 15 and 25%, so the wage bill conundrum is relative to our income. I'm sure if we had the gates that we had just before O'Neil left then Wages to Income percentage would be less. That and does the 87% include payoffs? Are ex-managers still getting a salary of some sort? Does Lerner take a large salary? Has he given himself a payrise since he isn't claiming interest? Are we now employing people through the payroll rather than outsourcing many services? The 87% figure needs context added to it... a professor that states we are 87% now instead of 85% for a radio station which needs to dramatise things to get people to listen raises the chances that the truth will be twisted and I'm surprised anyone will be taken in by this when it's as clear as ice that we have got rid of huge earners whose replacements would be on far less than half what their predecessors were earning. I would trust anything that Risso says as he will be open, honest and impartial which is a much better opinion than a radio stations. Edited March 8, 2013 by VillaLi0n Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ender4 Posted March 8, 2013 Share Posted March 8, 2013 (edited) Here's the numbers for the past 5 years: Revenue £m: 07/08 - 76 (6th, Acorns) 08/09 - 84 (6th, Acorns) 09/10 - 90 (6th, Acorns, Wembley x2) 10/11 - 92 (9th, FxPro) 11/12 - 80 (16th, Genting) Wages £m: 07/08 - 50 (MON) 08/09 - 50 (MON) 09/10 - 80 (MON) 10/11 - 83 (GH) 11/12 - 70 (AMC) Wages % of Turnover: 07/08 - 66% 08/09 - 60% 09/10 - 89% 10/11 - 90% 11/12 - 87% Edited March 8, 2013 by ender4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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