The Randy Lerner thread

[VillaForever1970]

Newcastle proving once again that Lerner is not that bad and you should be careful what you wish for.

[bannedfromHandV]

 

 

 

 

The problem is that people jump immediately on the negatives but not so immediately on the positives. That's their prerogative but they must concede that that approach appears to lack objectivity from the outside. I think pride in one's own opinion and the fear of a loss of face involved with any climb-down is also a lot to do with that.

 

That is the common problem with discussions on forums. I'd be massively guilty of similar stuff in years past. But I'm far more open minded, pragmatic and analytical. Mainly down the financial gains listening to others opinions can yield in horse race betting.

 

My opinions on Lerner now are not intransigent views from the acrimonious ending of the MON era as they used to be. I see MON was and is a football dinosaur. I think his strong personality was a factor in Lerner not running the club correctly. Not getting in a proper CEO to run the place for years. 

 

As for the corrections of the wage bill, how do you know it's Lerner learning from mistakes. It clearly has big link to Financial fair Play rules etc.. Lambert he did get in. which he can take some credit for but given his record on past managers it's hard to think it wasn't more than a large slice of convenient timing and luck on Lerners part. 

 

It boils down to nobody really making any strong cases for him being a competent owner bar his financial input in signings in years past. Putting money in is probably the easiest thing to do. running a club is much more than that.

 

We are where we are because of him. There is no denying that, we can lay blame at manager or others but he is the man in charge of those who work for him. He has a huge amount to prove before I have any faith in him to bring us forward long term.

 

That's the other thing people do. They put the good stuff down to luck but not the bad stuff. The bad stuff they say is a lack of judgement, yet the good stuff wasn't good judgement. To me it reads slightly like double standards to protect an opinion. You ask 'how I know' that reducing the wage bill is Lerner learning. How do you know it isn't? We don't know, but what it IS definite is that the reduction in the wage bill has us in better shape and it is Lerner that is doing it. I choose to believe that he is doing it for the right reasons and there's no actual evidence to say otherwise. Others can choose to spin it negatively. Particularly if they are coming from the perspective that he's not a good owner. It would make sense for them to spin it negatively.

 

 

 

There are plenty of quotes from the likes of Paul Lambert saying that we can't afford big transfer fees or wages.

 

 

There is also plenty of quotes from Lambert saying, I want players who want to play first and foremost not coming here looking for a paycheque. This is just as much as Lamberts policy than it is Randy's.

 

 

 

Surely it's a joint initiative which both parties were aware of prior to Lamberts employment as Manager, this is a pre-determined strategy and once the objectives are met in full then a new strategy will be formed......surely?

[PieFacE]

Newcastle proving once again that Lerner is not that bad and you should be careful what you wish for.

 

 

Whilst I do agree it could be worse, let's not forget that Lerner did appoint McLeish as manager. He's no saint. 

Edited June 18, 2013 by PieFacE

[sbaldie1]

I`m old enough to have watched our beloved C&Bs long before the Premier League came about.  So IMO this crap about "the worst premier defeats/goals conceded etc riles me.

Yes,  mistakes have been made (MON spending & McLeish) & certainly the last few seasons have been poor/unacceptable, but be very careful of what you wish for.

[bannedfromHandV]

I'm sure I've seen people who defend Lerner on him heavily criticise and even abuse certain players and ex managers which just seems strange.

I mean who has more influence on this club Hutton or Lerner? Heskey or Lerner? Mcleish or Lerner.

Yet the one with all the power and the most influence is excuses when it goes horribly wrong.

 

 

You don't get it do you?

 

Nobody is saying he's infallible, as nobody in the entire world is infallible.

 

He will and has made mistakes as have we all, we're now seemingly moving toward being in a better position both on and off the field, what bit of this doesn't compute?

Edited June 18, 2013 by bannedfromHandV

[dont_do_it_doug.]

The classics are out again. "We all make mistakes" and "he tried". Never have I known such pathetic excuses thrown out to defend a person at the club. Plenty of managers and players who underp perform are rightly criticised but not with Randy.

How Doug must have wished he'd had a tattoo and handed out the odd flag.

You honestly think the tattoo and the flags have any baring whatsoever on my opinion of him currently?

The same old condescending shite from the same posters. A shame really.

I don't really know.

It has to be something like that though because the football side of things seems to be ignored.

Some seem pleased we're aiming to become the sort of club we were under Doug, which was deemed unacceptable. Strange.

Nothing has been ignored, that's an extremely arrogant post. You seem to be suggesting I and others who believe they're doing a good job at present are incapable of forming a balanced opinion based on his entire tenure. I put it to you that in fact it's YOU who seems to have an issue with balance. You seem incapable of moving towards the middle ground. Highlighted by your undying love of everything O'Neill (yes, I'm invoking VillaTalks law), your undying hatred of Lerner (despite one post to the contrary which you seem to have veered away from in defence of your clear agenda) and your general hate/love relationship with Lambert.

For what it's worth, on the whole I think Lerners reign has been average - poor so far, the lows slightly outweighing the highs. But I'm happy with how things are going at present and happy to wait and see how this latest attempt at building the club turns out.

[Big_John_10]

We've been over this countless times. He over-trusted MON. MON took him to the cleaners. Lerner was completely naïve. That was a massive mistake on Lerner's part. We get that. How many times do we all have to agree on that? We've spent the past seasons trying to recover from it and we now look like we're doing so. That's where the learning comes in. Why is it that as soon as we come close to something approximating acknowledgement that we're doing well now and that Lerner might need some credit for that - someone has to once again go back to the tried and tested "Duh yeah but what about MON". It's tiring.

Are we recovering from just MoN? That seems a nice way to take any blame away form Lerner.

What about the wasted money spent under Houllier and Mcleish? Look at the wages we handed out to certain players during that time. How was that recovering from MoN? What about £16 million in compensation? How was that recovering from MoN?

The truth is the things people soley blame MON for continued for another 2 years. Strange that.

[bannedfromHandV]

 

We've been over this countless times. He over-trusted MON. MON took him to the cleaners. Lerner was completely naïve. That was a massive mistake on Lerner's part. We get that. How many times do we all have to agree on that? We've spent the past seasons trying to recover from it and we now look like we're doing so. That's where the learning comes in. Why is it that as soon as we come close to something approximating acknowledgement that we're doing well now and that Lerner might need some credit for that - someone has to once again go back to the tried and tested "Duh yeah but what about MON". It's tiring.

Are we recovering from just MoN? That seems a nice way to take any blame away form Lerner.

What about the wasted money spent under Houllier and Mcleish? Look at the wages we handed out to certain players during that time. How was that recovering from MoN? What about £16 million in compensation? How was that recovering from MoN?

The truth is the things people soley blame MON for continued for another 2 years. Strange that.

 

 

 

Boring hell mate seriously.

 

Please provide details of this £16M in compensation as so far as I see it it's been a couple of mil for Lambert and a couple for ginger prick

[Brumerican]

Still on the blame game after all this time ?

Broken record or what .

[Eames]

BJ10 - I'm going to give you a piece of advice

 

If you changed your posting style and begin to avoid such ridiculous absolutes you would find you don't get the pelters which you so frequently receive.

 

EG:

 

 

We've been over this countless times. He over-trusted MON. MON took him to the cleaners. Lerner was completely naïve. That was a massive mistake on Lerner's part. We get that. How many times do we all have to agree on that? We've spent the past seasons trying to recover from it and we now look like we're doing so. That's where the learning comes in. Why is it that as soon as we come close to something approximating acknowledgement that we're doing well now and that Lerner might need some credit for that - someone has to once again go back to the tried and tested "Duh yeah but what about MON". It's tiring.

Are we recovering from just MoN? That seems a nice way to take any reduce the blame away form on Lerner.

What about the wasted money unwisely spent under Houllier and Mcleish? Look at the wages we handed out to certain players during that time. How was that recovering from MoN? What about £16m?! million in compensation? How was that recovering from MoN?

The truth is the things people soley blame MON for continued for another 2 years. Strange that.

 

 

 A few changes in language increases the credibility of your arguement without reducing its weight.

 

Edited June 18, 2013 by Eames

[Big_John_10]

I and others who believe they're doing a good job at present

Yet the previous 2 years the same people seemed to still offer the same defence. Yes things are better this month but let's not pretend opinions changed during houllier and mcleish's time in charge.

You seem incapable of moving towards the middle ground.

Have you watched the last 3 years? It's been awful. What's the middle ground? Praise because he didn't relegate us.

It seems expectations have been lowered because its Lerner.

Like I said some are pleased we're aiming to be the club we deemed unacceptable when Doug was in charge.

Explain that one.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Big_John_10

[Big_John_10]

We've been over this countless times. He over-trusted MON. MON took him to the cleaners. Lerner was completely naïve. That was a massive mistake on Lerner's part. We get that. How many times do we all have to agree on that? We've spent the past seasons trying to recover from it and we now look like we're doing so. That's where the learning comes in. Why is it that as soon as we come close to something approximating acknowledgement that we're doing well now and that Lerner might need some credit for that - someone has to once again go back to the tried and tested "Duh yeah but what about MON". It's tiring.

Are we recovering from just MoN? That seems a nice way to take any blame away form Lerner.

What about the wasted money spent under Houllier and Mcleish? Look at the wages we handed out to certain players during that time. How was that recovering from MoN? What about £16 million in compensation? How was that recovering from MoN?

The truth is the things people soley blame MON for continued for another 2 years. Strange that.

 

 

Boring hell mate seriously.

 

Please provide details of this £16M in compensation as so far as I see it it's been a couple of mil for Lambert and a couple for ginger prick

It was included in a set of accounts the club released.

[bannedfromHandV]

 

 

 

We've been over this countless times. He over-trusted MON. MON took him to the cleaners. Lerner was completely naïve. That was a massive mistake on Lerner's part. We get that. How many times do we all have to agree on that? We've spent the past seasons trying to recover from it and we now look like we're doing so. That's where the learning comes in. Why is it that as soon as we come close to something approximating acknowledgement that we're doing well now and that Lerner might need some credit for that - someone has to once again go back to the tried and tested "Duh yeah but what about MON". It's tiring.

Are we recovering from just MoN? That seems a nice way to take any blame away form Lerner.

What about the wasted money spent under Houllier and Mcleish? Look at the wages we handed out to certain players during that time. How was that recovering from MoN? What about £16 million in compensation? How was that recovering from MoN?

The truth is the things people soley blame MON for continued for another 2 years. Strange that.

 

 

Boring hell mate seriously.

 

Please provide details of this £16M in compensation as so far as I see it it's been a couple of mil for Lambert and a couple for ginger prick

It was included in a set of accounts the club released.

 

 

 

Credible link?

 

Do you know what, I actually don't care if it is £16M or not.

 

The choice between paying £16M or sticking with either of Houllier or Ginger prick isn't much of a choice so I actually don't care............

Edited June 18, 2013 by bannedfromHandV

[Eames]

 

 

 

We've been over this countless times. He over-trusted MON. MON took him to the cleaners. Lerner was completely naïve. That was a massive mistake on Lerner's part. We get that. How many times do we all have to agree on that? We've spent the past seasons trying to recover from it and we now look like we're doing so. That's where the learning comes in. Why is it that as soon as we come close to something approximating acknowledgement that we're doing well now and that Lerner might need some credit for that - someone has to once again go back to the tried and tested "Duh yeah but what about MON". It's tiring.

Are we recovering from just MoN? That seems a nice way to take any blame away form Lerner.

What about the wasted money spent under Houllier and Mcleish? Look at the wages we handed out to certain players during that time. How was that recovering from MoN? What about £16 million in compensation? How was that recovering from MoN?

The truth is the things people soley blame MON for continued for another 2 years. Strange that.

 

 

Boring hell mate seriously.

 

Please provide details of this £16M in compensation as so far as I see it it's been a couple of mil for Lambert and a couple for ginger prick

It was included in a set of accounts the club released.

 

 

You mean THESE accounts?

 

Unless we paid Houllier £5m and Norwich the same for Lambert your sums simply dont add up.

Edited June 18, 2013 by Eames

[BOF]

What about the wasted money spent under Houllier and Mcleish? Look at the wages we handed out to certain players during that time. How was that recovering from MoN? What about £16 million in compensation? How was that recovering from MoN?

How many players did Houllier buy the summer he arrived? None. Ireland arrived off the back of Milner going the other way. How linked the 2 transfers were is still a cause for debate but given what is in the public domain I find it unlikely that we could have said no to Ireland without some financial penalty being involved. But then as this was the tail end of the MON era we can put this into the 'mistakes' category. Houllier bought Makoun and Bent in January. Bent in particular was an emergency purchase because we weren't scoring goals. His goals kept us up that season. Lerner showed that he still had the financial clout if we really needed it. Makoun was a Houllier man and it didn't work out, particularly when Houllier's ticker threatened to give up again - resulting in a payoff that mightn't have happened under normal circumstances given that we (somehow) ended up finishing in the top half. But you fire away and criticise Lerner for having to give compensation to a man whose heart gave him trouble. Should he have hired him given his health history? In hindsight probably not. It was always risky, but then if the doctors are telling you it's OK and they're clearing the man to work then why not?

McLeish was a terrible appointment but in terms of financial prudence which is your current charge against Lerner, he didn't work out badly at least off the pitch. After Downing shat on us to go to Liverpool, we the fans demanded N'Zogbia as the replacement. We got him and were £10.5m up net spending. (£20m v £9.5m). Good business. Shay Given was brought in to cover Friedels' departure. A stupid contract was given to him but I think the timing and the circumstances of that were less than ideal and perhaps forced our hand. Either way, Given had a good season and was another large part in us staying up. Alan Hutton at the time made sense. In hindsight we know more, but I was content enough with his arrival at the time. It certainly didn't look like on the face of it as bad as the player turned out to be. All the while releasing Carew, Luke Young, Hogg, Osbourne & Lowry.

The truth is the things people soley blame MON for continued for another 2 years. Strange that.

The truth in your eyes appears slightly twisted towards one conclusion and anything that tests that conclusion is met with a blinkered attack.

[Risso]

You idiot BJ10, it wasn't £16m compensation! 

 

 

It was £18m.  £12m in the 2011 accounts, £6m in the 2012 accounts. 

[Morpheus]

To change the subject a little.

 

I'm concerned the club will now stagnate rather than get better year in year out.

 

We are buying young players which is great but if those young players continue to improve at the rate of say Benteke, Westwood or Lowton will the chairman invest enough in wages to keep those players with the vultures circling? We have kept Weimann but i'm not sure there was too many clubs interested so rather than being able to build a team will we just keep selling our better players and become the Premiership version of Crewe rather than gaining any success?

[dont_do_it_doug.]

I and others who believe they're doing a good job at present

Yet the previous 2 years the same people seemed to still offer the same defence. Yes things are better this month but let's not pretend opinions changed during houllier and mcleish's time in charge.

You seem incapable of moving towards the middle ground.

Have you watched the last 3 years? It's been awful. What's the middle ground? Praise because he didn't relegate us.

It seems expectations have been lowered because its Lerner.

Like I said some are pleased we're aiming to be the club we deemed unacceptable when Doug was in charge.

Explain that one.

I was happy with Houllier's reign. I liked his footballing ethos and actually found him quite endearing. I am fully aware this goes against the grain but I did not find his appointment to be a "mistake". I did not find the experience to be "awful". Jarring perhaps, a little scary at first, but I wanted him to stay. That's your opinion, not mine.

My expectations have always been low. My expectations for this club are to finish 6th-8th regularly and to occasionally compete higher and for trophies. Two transitional years, for whatever reason, have not changed those expectations.

People were not happy with lots of things under Ellis. I don't have the time nor the patience to compare the two and I don't really see the relevance.

[Eames]

Why does it matter if we sell them on? Seems to work just fine for Spurs........

[CVByrne]

So without the benefits of the above you end up with 2 options - what we have ie: a wealthy bloke prepared to invest who yes has made some big mistakes in his time here but has ultimately been of benefit to the club and its supporters OR you have Venky's, Carson Yeung etc.

 

This is the worst post I've read in a long time. So we have Lerner or Venky's they are the only 2 options. If it's not Lerner it can only be Venkys or Yeung

 

Amazingly stupid post. Quite amazing.