The Randy Lerner thread

[PB]

Furthermore, if Randy knew his limits (financially) then i'm fairly sure we'd all have preferred extra investment in the playing staff over mosaics, pubs and charity sponsorships. Fantastic gestures, but these arent the kind of things that Villa fans are really after is it?

I think when he first arrived he thought he could do it all, and post Ellis these things were important, a sign that years of decay were being swept away and that the club wanted to connect with and energise the fan base.

In retropsect, given the collapse in his personal fortune, these things look like errors, especially to him I'm sure, but I think thats the benefit of hindsight.

[Shillzz]

Indeed,

My post was based on the assumption that he'd have known his financial limits from the start. This may not be the case ofcourse.

[brommy]

Indeed,

My post was based on the assumption that he'd have known his financial limits from the start. This may not be the case ofcourse.

Within 2 years from Randy buying Villa two unexpected things happened which 'moved the goal posts':

1) A world recession which affected virtually everyone's disposable income, at all levels;

2) Sheikh Mansour bin Zayed Al Nahyan decided to invest rather heavily in citeh changing Villa's achievement of the top 4 from 'unlikely' to 'highly unlikely'.

Given the above, I can't blame Randy for his initial attempt in backing MON to take us to 4th, followed by the more realistic spending in keeping with the club's size and income. It disappoints me that MON didn't feel able to cope with the changes that were forced upon all of us.

[makouns_grin]

I really hope that Villa fans begin to release what has been said in some of the posts above, it would actually help us improve as a club.

Rather than pining after billions and billions alot have lost sight of what it is to support a football club.

[mykeyb]

Are we talking first team squad, how many is that 25?

So 250 grand a week.

So Another 4 or 5 players leaving with no replacement.

I hope this is journalist crap.

thats not what it says. If amyrhing its suggesting that those on big money will be replaced by those on less money

I just checked on the clubs OS. We have 27 players in our first team squad. Out of those 27 players 10 have come from the youth / reserves and that figure does not include Fabian Delph.

So thats 16 players who must be a bloody good screw for our wages to be so far out of kilter. Now I suppose that when Beye, Heskey & Cuellar leave that should cover the 10 grand a week for the 16 players who have not come through the youth setup. I really dont see how you are going to cut 10 grand from the wages of the remaining 11 as some probably wont be on much more than that.

All this and we still wont be able to offer improved contracts to players or bring anyone else in (unless we manage to shift Ireland out to or more likely we flog Bent to the first half decent offer)

[Super-Villan]

As I see it, RL came in with a plan to get into the top four. He appears to have put up the money that all things considered should have given us a really good chance. For two or three years there he provided massive, unprecedented for Villa sums of money for transfers and appears to have authorised a very large wage bill. For whatever reason we didnt quite make the step up.

I disagree very much with this. If that is what Randy thought, then my opinion is that he severely underestimated how much it would take in cash to break a very strong top 4, or to break it in any worthwhile or prolonged way.

Yes, we spent a lot of money. But we were starting from a very low base when he arrived, and from there it needed a lot of money just to be competetive again, let alone challenge the big guns. Coming 6th was about where I would expect for the money we spent. Even if we had broken the top 4, I think it would have taken a hell of a lot more money to have stayed there the next season.

Regarding where we are now, I've no problem with having to cut our cloth accordingly if the cash isn't there for whatever reason. I think it has been handled badly though, and there have been mixed signals and bad communication from the club - i.e. the General talking as if expectations hadn't changed, the signing of Bent in Jan and the ambition we might have thought that showed.

[barry'sboots]

As I see it, RL came in with a plan to get into the top four. He appears to have put up the money that all things considered should have given us a really good chance. For two or three years there he provided massive, unprecedented for Villa sums of money for transfers and appears to have authorised a very large wage bill. For whatever reason we didnt quite make the step up.

I disagree very much with this. If that is what Randy thought, then my opinion is that he severely underestimated how much it would take in cash to break a very strong top 4, or to break it in any worthwhile or prolonged way.

Yes, we spent a lot of money. But we were starting from a very low base when he arrived, and from there it needed a lot of money just to be competetive again, let alone challenge the big guns. Coming 6th was about where I would expect for the money we spent. Even if we had broken the top 4, I think it would have taken a hell of a lot more money to have stayed there the next season.

Regarding where we are now, I've no problem with having to cut our cloth accordingly if the cash isn't there for whatever reason. I think it has been handled badly though, and there have been mixed signals and bad communication from the club - i.e. the General talking as if expectations hadn't changed, the signing of Bent in Jan and the ambition we might have thought that showed.

Completely agree.

Randy and his, IMO, inept management team have made a complete mess of the last two years. Poor managerial appointments/processes coupled with an about turn in strategy that has left us, IMO, a couple of players short in key positions and shocking PR management. I guess that's what you get when you appoint a bunch of "yes men" with little or no experience of running a £100m niche consumer business with very special characteristics.

And the General is just a joke. Typical US BS artist who thinks he is smarter than he is from what I can see (sorry, YIM, clearly this is a stereotype but he fitted it perfectly!).

[VillanWA]

As I see it, RL came in with a plan to get into the top four. He appears to have put up the money that all things considered should have given us a really good chance. For two or three years there he provided massive, unprecedented for Villa sums of money for transfers and appears to have authorised a very large wage bill. For whatever reason we didnt quite make the step up.

I disagree very much with this. If that is what Randy thought, then my opinion is that he severely underestimated how much it would take in cash to break a very strong top 4, or to break it in any worthwhile or prolonged way.

Yes, we spent a lot of money. But we were starting from a very low base when he arrived, and from there it needed a lot of money just to be competetive again, let alone challenge the big guns. Coming 6th was about where I would expect for the money we spent. Even if we had broken the top 4, I think it would have taken a hell of a lot more money to have stayed there the next season.

Regarding where we are now, I've no problem with having to cut our cloth accordingly if the cash isn't there for whatever reason. I think it has been handled badly though, and there have been mixed signals and bad communication from the club - i.e. the General talking as if expectations hadn't changed, the signing of Bent in Jan and the ambition we might have thought that showed.

I think he underestimated how much money could be wasted on average to crap football players by a supposedly well respected experienced manager, who bailed on us to save his oh so precious reputation.

[PB]

I think he underestimated how much money could be wasted on average to crap football players by a supposedly well respected experienced manager, who bailed on us to save his oh so precious reputation.

To a point I agree, although I think its fair to say that o'Neill also bought some outstanding players. Although he did waste alot of cash on players who werent all that, he had a team that when you look at it now really should have done better than it did. Young, Downing, Milner, Barry - all these are top class players. I think the team O'Neill had was every bit as good as the Spurs team that finished fourth.

All that ammunition. All that money spent on providing chances. All that money wasted on average defenders. All those hours on the training pitch perfecting a counter attacking style of play.

I am left wondering what would have been had he had a nose for a striker. Buying Heskey was perhaps the defining moment of his Villa career. Imagine if that had been Bent? Ah well, its gone now.

[barry'sboots]

To a point I agree, although I think its fair to say that o'Neill also bought some outstanding players. Although he did waste alot of cash on players who werent all that, he had a team that when you look at it now really should have done better than it did. Young, Downing, Milner, Barry - all these are top class players. I think the team O'Neill had was every bit as good as the Spurs team that finished fourth.

All that ammunition. All that money spent on providing chances. All that money wasted on average defenders. All those hours on the training pitch perfecting a counter attacking style of play.

I am left wondering what would have been had he had a nose for a striker. Buying Heskey was perhaps the defining moment of his Villa career. Imagine if that had been Bent? Ah well, its gone now.

Heskey could have been a brilliant buy - if we had had a player that could have played of Emile AND a CM pairing that was strong enough to play as a two. Gabby and Carew are just not that sort of player. I do feel for Emile as he gets a lot of stick but, IMO, this is MON's fault and not his.

I think MON bought players because he liked the players and not because he could see how they would fit in to our team.

[tonyh29]

Heskey could have been a brilliant buy

not in this reality and probably not in any other reality either :-)

[CannockVillan]

To a point I agree, although I think its fair to say that o'Neill also bought some outstanding players. Although he did waste alot of cash on players who werent all that, he had a team that when you look at it now really should have done better than it did. Young, Downing, Milner, Barry - all these are top class players. I think the team O'Neill had was every bit as good as the Spurs team that finished fourth.

At what point in time did we ever have those four playersw in the saem team? sorry if i've misinterpreted but the answer to my own question is never.

We had three of them for one season together in 08-09 (Barry Milner and Young) and a different three (Downing, Young and Milner in 09-10. Never all four. We might even have had Barry Milner and Young playing duriung Milner's loan spell too. Also bear in mind that in the 09-10 season i think downing spent the best part of a third of the season out of action as he didn't actually start a game until November.

You might say that having three is good and yes i would agree, but there was also upheaval during those times and its never been a consistent period where we have had all three.

O'Neill had the team to reach the top four but his system and lack of rotation/failure to rest key individuals meant he blew it.

I think his spending was at best 50% decent and and 50% dire. Add to that the value of some of these player's contracts then it slips more into the dire category (whoever was responsible for wages it was the manager who at the end of the day decided and advised in his opinion no doubt if a player was worth it).

[CI]

If we'd been able to keep our best players, I think we'd be Top 4 now, ahead of Arsenal.

-----------Given---------------

Young Cahill Dunne Warnock

Young Barry Milner Downing

------Gabby---Bent------------

[Morley_crosses_to_Withe]

Good posts PB.

I'll add this...

This idea that we didn't spend enough is hardly evident in our final league position of 2009-2010. That's unless you sincerely believe that six points between us and fourth was a gaping chasm! That's merely a couple more wins at home (where our record, relative to other top six teams, was awful!). Or even a better set of results in March (which MON couldn't seem to manage!).

And then there's Darren Bent. We could have had him for £12M quid from Spurs, but obviously MON didn't think he'd work well in a team containing Young, Downing and Milner.

Ahh well.

[Houlston]

Good posts PB.

I'll add this...

This idea that we didn't spend enough is hardly evident in our final league position of 2009-2010. That's unless you sincerely believe that six points between us and fourth was a gaping chasm! That's merely a couple more wins at home (where our record, relative to other top six teams, was awful!). Or even a better set of results in March (which MON couldn't seem to manage!).

And then there's Darren Bent. We could have had him for £12M quid from Spurs, but obviously MON didn't think he'd work well in a team containing Young, Downing and Milner.

Ahh well.

Exactly and for those thinking that we would have needed even more money to sustain that placing well that cash injection would have come from the CL and no doubt a larger sponsor and an expanding fan base.

[Super-Villan]

Good posts PB.

This idea that we didn't spend enough is hardly evident in our final league position of 2009-2010. That's unless you sincerely believe that six points between us and fourth was a gaping chasm! That's merely a couple more wins at home (where our record, relative to other top six teams, was awful!). Or even a better set of results in March (which MON couldn't seem to manage!).

I didn't say that 6 points was a gaping chasm, just that I believe 6th was roughly the correct level for that team and the amount of money spent. 4th would have been overachieving a little bit.

To talk of merely a couple of home wins is crazy. Titles and things are usually decided on much much less. In fact to win the league by 6 points would be considered as running away with it. Pinpointing certain areas where we didn't do as well that season is also silly. Things even themselves out over the course of a season. That we had a bad March doesn't make him a worse manager than if we'd had a bad October instead.

[Bazdavies79]

I disagree very much with this. If that is what Randy thought, then my opinion is that he severely underestimated how much it would take in cash to break a very strong top 4, or to break it in any worthwhile or prolonged way.

Severely underestimated? We weren't that far off doing it though. You could go further and argue he backed MON with enough money, but the money was wasted. If we'd have got a foothold in the CL we may have generated enough cash to stay there and hold on to our best talent.

[Richard]

In terms of our position as a club in the league and our ability to compete at the top end, retain and build around our best players and win things I see no difference now to when Ellis was here. But then Doug didn't have a Villa tattoo

[briny_ear]

We might have got to 4th - a couple of times we were very nearly there. Having the squad to keep us there would have been an entirely different matter and something that Lerner probably never had the resources for, certainly not now.

[Richard]

We might have got to 4th - a couple of times we were very nearly there. Having the squad to keep us there would have been an entirely different matter and something that Lerner probably never had the resources for, certainly not now.

We even got 4th under Ellis, and second as well. Like I say no difference now for me