Bazdavies79 Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 In terms of our position as a club in the league and our ability to compete at the top end, retain and build around our best players and win things I see no difference now to when Ellis was here. But then Doug didn't have a Villa tattoo You might argue we'll never reach the highs of Doug's best years, but that's because the football landscape has changed, comparisons with then and now are misleading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 but that's because the football landscape has changed And when Randy came it was said we had an owner to enable us to change with it. Seeems we didn't Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CI Posted October 11, 2011 Author Share Posted October 11, 2011 In terms of our position as a club in the league and our ability to compete at the top end, retain and build around our best players and win things I see no difference now to when Ellis was here. But then Doug didn't have a Villa tattoo You might argue we'll never reach the highs of Doug's best years, but that's because the football landscape has changed, comparisons with then and now are misleading. an easy cop out that, we have the wealthiest owner we've ever had, we've spent collossal amounts since he came, we just failed to make the cut, now we're paying Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bazdavies79 Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 but that's because the football landscape has changed And when Randy came it was said we had an owner to enable us to change with it. Seeems we didn'tI don't recall that being said. It was a fresh new start and an improvement on Doug. We'd be in the championship now if Doug hadn't have sold up to his favoured bidder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papillon Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 but that's because the football landscape has changed And when Randy came it was said we had an owner to enable us to change with it. Seeems we didn't The Financial Crisis and Man City happened. You do not see how that changed things? Obviously not, since you always write your pessimistic drivel on here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
briny_ear Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 but that's because the football landscape has changed And when Randy came it was said we had an owner to enable us to change with it. Seeems we didn't The Financial Crisis and Man City happened. You do not see how that changed things? Obviously not, since you always write your pessimistic drivel on here. So show us how the financial crisis and Man City provide the basis for optimism about Villa (of course, what you write won't be drivel :winkold: ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PB Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 In terms of our position as a club in the league and our ability to compete at the top end, retain and build around our best players and win things I see no difference now to when Ellis was here. But then Doug didn't have a Villa tattoo The difference Richard, and i suspect you know this really, is that under Ellis Villa didnt have the means to survive in this league. Had Doug stayed we would have been relegated, and stayed down. So apart from the Villa tattoo, which is frankly irrelevant, Randy provided the investment to keep us in this league. Yes under Ellis we finished fourth, and second, but I suspect you also know that was in a different era, a whole different world, and that comparing like for like does your argument no favours at all really. When we protested in 2000, it was under everything else because as fans we could feel that United and Arsenal were stretching away from us and that Chelsea wouldnt be far behind. We were angry about missing the boat that was sailing without us. Eliis not only didnt see it, he denied it, claiming that Villa were perfectly capable of competing with United and Arsenal for titles. You'd have to be alot more deluded than old Uncle Doug to make that assertion in 2011. And, being totally fair, Randy at least tried to get us on the boat. Doug didnt even see it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeMcKenna Posted October 11, 2011 VT Supporter Share Posted October 11, 2011 In terms of our position as a club in the league and our ability to compete at the top end, retain and build around our best players and win things I see no difference now to when Ellis was here. But then Doug didn't have a Villa tattoo The difference Richard, and i suspect you know this really, is that under Ellis Villa didnt have the means to survive in this league. [...] We were angry about missing the boat that was sailing without us. Ellis not only didnt see it, he denied it, claiming that Villa were perfectly capable of competing with United and Arsenal for titles.You'd have to be alot more deluded than old Uncle Doug to make that assertion in 2011. And, being totally fair, Randy at least tried to get us on the boat. Doug didnt even see it. PB I agree that it is different now than under Ellis but it feels like we are now reverting to type. Your comment about why so many Were angry then holds today. Irrespective of Randy Lerner's attempt to get us "on the boat" he failed and to continue the maritime theme, the good ship Aston Villa now appears rudderless yet again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CI Posted October 11, 2011 Author Share Posted October 11, 2011 Some clear, robust comms from the club could have avoided much of this backlash against Lerner/Faulkner/Charles K It's the silence thats so frustrating Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skipvilla1 Posted October 11, 2011 Share Posted October 11, 2011 Who is this Randy y'all speak of? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makouns_grin Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Villa fans have to have someone to moan about, have to have a bad guy to blame everything on. Currently its Randy because he is not rich anymore, if he spent a billion tomorrow he would suddenly be great again. Its down right ridiculous and stupid to act like spoilt brats because we're not spending shit load and if we're not we should just sell to someone who will. What then on to the next owner to spend shit load, yeah great idea? Doug is irrelevant and a poor argument, as football back then was a tiny winy be different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makouns_grin Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 but that's because the football landscape has changed And when Randy came it was said we had an owner to enable us to change with it. Seeems we didn't Did he say forever, or have you assumed it should be an infinite time frame? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PB Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 In terms of our position as a club in the league and our ability to compete at the top end, retain and build around our best players and win things I see no difference now to when Ellis was here. But then Doug didn't have a Villa tattoo The difference Richard, and i suspect you know this really, is that under Ellis Villa didnt have the means to survive in this league. [...] We were angry about missing the boat that was sailing without us. Ellis not only didnt see it, he denied it, claiming that Villa were perfectly capable of competing with United and Arsenal for titles.You'd have to be alot more deluded than old Uncle Doug to make that assertion in 2011. And, being totally fair, Randy at least tried to get us on the boat. Doug didnt even see it. PB I agree that it is different now than under Ellis but it feels like we are now reverting to type. Your comment about why so many Were angry then holds today. Irrespective of Randy Lerner's attempt to get us "on the boat" he failed and to continue the maritime theme, the good ship Aston Villa now appears rudderless yet again. I understand the point Mike, but I'm not sure we are rudderless in quite the same way. I dont think we are plumetting towards the lower divisions as we were. Certainly we are as far behind United et al as were were ten years ago, but really the time to get with it was then, as with every passing year the big clubs have got more and more powerful. I think people forget just how bad things were. A month or so before Randy rolled in the players and manager were in open revolt against the board. You'd have been a brave man to bet on us staying up the following season. Things arent that bad, or even likely to get that bad any time soon. We have a solid if unspectacular team more than capable of punching our weight. No, we arent going to challenge the top four any time really soon either, but to do so requires more than what we as a club are capable of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Some clear, robust comms from the club could have avoided much of this backlash against Lerner/Faulkner/Charles K It's the silence thats so frustratingThey're silent because they cannot say anything positive to change the view of fans. That is they have no message Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 In terms of our position as a club in the league and our ability to compete at the top end, retain and build around our best players and win things I see no difference now to when Ellis was here. But then Doug didn't have a Villa tattoo The difference Richard, and i suspect you know this really, is that under Ellis Villa didnt have the means to survive in this league. Had Doug stayed we would have been relegated, and stayed down. Coulda, shoulda , woulda. Look Peter I absolutely agree with the view that we were heading down and likely to be relegated, hell I said as much at the time. However, you know I wouldn't be surprised if the same thing happened to us sooner rather than later. Under Ellis he aimed for mediocrity and would not speculate, did not realise that to stand still required investment and as such it was a vicious circle. I suspect the same now under Lerner and can only see the same outcome. He does not, I beleive , understand that to stand still requires investment. So apart from the Villa tattoo, which is frankly irrelevant, Randy provided the investment to keep us in this league. As did Doug really Yes under Ellis we finished fourth, and second, but I suspect you also know that was in a different era, a whole different world, and that comparing like for like does your argument no favours at all really. You can only beat what is in front of you Peter. I think the argument is supported actually. Yes a different era and different time in football, but could you not say that Ellis managed to help us compete in that different era better than Lerner is now helping us compete in this era. Different era yes but why does that now justify Lerner when we all said at the time that Ellis was past his sell by and we needed a new man capable of competing in a new era. Foot ball has moved on is not really an excuse for Lerner or are we saying football has moved on but it is OK for our owner not to have done? When we protested in 2000, it was under everything else because as fans we could feel that United and Arsenal were stretching away from us and that Chelsea wouldnt be far behind. So what is the difference today save that Manure and Chelsea have got off the boat and are on another contnent and that the boat has returned to harbour, Spurs, Man Citeh and Plop are now on board and waiting anxiously at the gates for the boat to return are other clubs on the verge of moving ahead of us. This is where, with respect, your argument does not see that the game has moved on still further and where , with Doug, we were rightly worried about the clubs you mention, today there are other clubs also moving ahead of us on a new boat. We were angry about missing the boat that was sailing without us. Eliis not only didnt see it, he denied it, claiming that Villa were perfectly capable of competing with United and Arsenal for titles. You'd have to be alot more deluded than old Uncle Doug to make that assertion in 2011. And, being totally fair, Randy at least tried to get us on the boat. Doug didnt even see it. Different clubs , but same assertion being made by Randy et al for sure. They realise that United, Chelsea etc are not catchable but their mistake is in thinking the other clubs will remain on par or behind us. In my honest opinion. Different era, different game, different clubs, different owner but still the same mistakes. You know it makes me feel dirty to seemingly be sticking up for Ellis, I wanted him gone as much as the next chap. But I am not sticking up of rhim, I am saying how Lerner , for me, is now getting towards the Ellis envelope for poor football ownership Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 but that's because the football landscape has changed And when Randy came it was said we had an owner to enable us to change with it. Seeems we didn't Did he say forever, or have you assumed it should be an infinite time frame? Ahhhh OK so really we should only have really expected for him to enable us to change with the landscape for the first few years and then when the landscape changed further that was it? We couldn't change and would basically stand still while the landscape and other clubs changed around us? It is clearer now thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barry'sboots Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Villa fans have to have someone to moan about, have to have a bad guy to blame everything on. Currently its Randy because he is not rich anymore, if he spent a billion tomorrow he would suddenly be great again. Its down right ridiculous and stupid to act like spoilt brats because we're not spending shit load and if we're not we should just sell to someone who will. What then on to the next owner to spend shit load, yeah great idea? Doug is irrelevant and a poor argument, as football back then was a tiny winy be different. Are you not moaning about something in your post? :winkold: I think you are misunderstanding why most of us are p'd off with RL at the minute. It is not because of his lack of spending. Most of us, I believe, understand that he can't just keep chucking money into the bottomless pit that is extortionate players wages and that he can't get his cock out when competing with Mansour's big schlonger! The reasons we are complaining about RL is because he runs our club so poorly: - He is ultimately responsible for the spending under his reign and sanctioned big buys and wages for squad players that now appears in direct contravention of his current strategy. I can understanding him wanting to change this BUT changing it in one summer has left us short staffed in one or two keys areas IMO and this has put us at risk of going down. Over the next couple of years there are a number of big contracts - Heskey, Beye, Petrov, Dunne - that are coming up for the end and he should have phased in the downgrade. He needs a strategy and he doesn't seem to have one. To use an earlier analogy - "rudderless ship" seems very apt. - He has disenfranchised the fan base by uninspired and naive managerial appointments and terrible PR/communication with the fan base. This has been made even worse by the attempted communications from that muppet, the General, who is just a liability. - He has appointed a board of "yes men" with little or no relevant experience of running a niche consumer business with £100m turnover let alone any understanding of football or the football fan. You could argue that it his right as an owner to do all of these things but I would equally argue that it is my right as a paying customer (and as a fan) to criticise him if I think he has made a poor job of running my great club and, ultimately, to withdraw my custom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amsterdam_Neil_D Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 Some clear, robust comms from the club could have avoided much of this backlash against Lerner/Faulkner/Charles K It's the silence thats so frustrating If you are guilty of something then "No Comment" seems to be the way forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
makouns_grin Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 but that's because the football landscape has changed And when Randy came it was said we had an owner to enable us to change with it. Seeems we didn't Did he say forever, or have you assumed it should be an infinite time frame? Ahhhh OK so really we should only have really expected for him to enable us to change with the landscape for the first few years and then when the landscape changed further that was it? We couldn't change and would basically stand still while the landscape and other clubs changed around us? It is clearer now thanks. Its your stupid fault for expecting something to last forever, your not stupid though are you and know full well. Quite convenient, gives your further excuses to have a go, infact there is always a reason to have ago. Enjoy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
barry'sboots Posted October 12, 2011 Share Posted October 12, 2011 The land scape has definitely changed. Citeh have been a big disruptive factor. BUT if anything they have made the landscape potentially more favourable because they have opened up that fourth spot. When RL came in you had a clear Big 4 (aka the Sky 4). Now you have a clear Big 3 - Utd, Citeh and Chelski - with Arsenal and Plop struggling and no longer assured of a CL spot. The fourth spot is up for grabs. It is still a tough ask as Plop and Arsenal still have much higher revenues but Citeh appear to have de-stabilised them as much as they have ourselves. I would say fourth spot is as open as it has ever been in recent years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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