U.S. Politics

[HanoiVillan]

Mike Pence does not appear to have had the authority to have called out the National Guard the other day, and yet he did so and out they went.

Donald Trump doesn't target the bomb or press fire.

[fruitvilla]

10 minutes ago, Awol said:

First point, that’s BS. There are no safeguards. The military cannot disobey a lawful order from the Commander in Chief, period. 

Second, these are her own words:

 

 

So there is no record of the conversation itself ...  Without personalities involved ... In say a hypothetical situation if there is an unhinged president, is asking about what safeguards are in place, mutiny? 

Also I gather, I was following orders is not a really good defense these days.

 

Edited January 12, 2021 by fruitvilla

[Awol]

And here it is, signed by all the Joint Chiefs! Note: “The US military will obey lawful orders from the civilian leadership..”

Only the President or someone acting with his delegated authority can give those orders. That doesn’t include Pelosi. Imagine if for 10 days the US military could use its discretion on whether or not to obey orders. Ludicrous. 
 

[andym]

8 minutes ago, Awol said:

First point, that’s BS. There are no safeguards. The military cannot disobey a lawful order from the Commander in Chief, period. 

Second, these are her own words:

 

 

Are the words 'unstable president' not key there?

If he's deemed unstable, then surely an order could be considered unlawful? They must have some checks in place?

For example, if Trump said 'i want to nuke Scotland in revenge for Nicola Sturgeon being mean and saying i cant come and play golf there', then the generals wouldn't just go 'here's the big red button sir'?

[bickster]

2 minutes ago, andym said:

Are the words 'unstable president' not key there?

If he's deemed unstable, then surely an order could be considered unlawful? They must have some checks in place?

For example, if Trump said 'i want to nuke Scotland in revenge for Nicola Sturgeon being mean and saying i cant come and play golf there', then the generals wouldn't just go 'here's the big red button sir'?

If he's unstable then it falls to Pence to invoke section 4 of the 25th Ammendment to the constitution

That is the check that is in place

[fruitvilla]

2 minutes ago, andym said:

For example, if Trump said 'i want to nuke Scotland in revenge for Nicola Sturgeon being mean and saying i cant come and play golf there', then the generals wouldn't just go 'here's the big red button sir'?

Don't be stupid, that is way over the top. It would be a drone attack on Nicola. Nukes might damage Trump's golf courses.

[Awol]

7 minutes ago, andym said:

Are the words 'unstable president' not key there?

If he's deemed unstable, then surely an order could be considered unlawful? They must have some checks in place?

For example, if Trump said 'i want to nuke Scotland in revenge for Nicola Sturgeon being mean and saying i cant come and play golf there', then the generals wouldn't just go 'here's the big red button sir'?

Unstable President is a subjective statement, unstable according to whom? 

The safeguard is the election process, that the American people elect a fit and proper person as President and Commander in Chief. After that the military obey their Commander’s legal orders. 

If he ordered the nuking of Scotland then it’s going to get done, personal reservations don’t come into it. Equally, if Boris ordered our missile sub commander to nuke Washington, he’d do it. 

The military follow legal orders, especially when it comes to orders for the release of nuclear weapons. That’s how it works. 
 

Edit: and what Bicks said. In office his Cabinet can take him off the board with the 25th - the other safeguard. 

Edited January 12, 2021 by Awol

[bickster]

12 minutes ago, Awol said:

And here it is, signed by all the Joint Chiefs! Note: “The US military will obey lawful orders from the civilian leadership..”

Only the President or someone acting with his delegated authority can give those orders. That doesn’t include Pelosi. Imagine if for 10 days the US military could use its discretion on whether or not to obey orders. Ludicrous. 
 

My take on this is that its aimed two ways but ultimately there is a crossover between the two

On the surface its sent to all Military Personel but it would appear to be aimed at those with sympathies towards the "Patriots", of which it is rumoured that there are a decent number

It is also aimed at the whole "patriot" community saying, you aren't getting help from the Military, on the contrary, if we're called in, we will do our job and we'll do it well

[LondonLax]

7 minutes ago, Awol said:

Unstable President is a subjective statement, unstable according to whom? 

The safeguard is the election process, that the American people elect a fit and proper person as President and Commander in Chief. After that the military obey their Commander’s legal orders. 

If he ordered the nuking of Scotland then it’s going to get done, personal reservations don’t come into it. Equally, if Boris ordered our missile sub commander to nuke Washington, he’d do it. 

The military follow legal orders, especially when it comes to orders for the release of nuclear weapons. That’s how it works. 
 

Edit: and what Bicks said. In office his Cabinet can take him off the board with the 25th - the other safeguard. 

Pelosi’s statement was just political theatre. She’s building pressure on Republicans who still support Trump, not trying to alter the military chain of command.

[legov]

Seems like McConnell is on board with the whole impeachment thing - which should make conviction much more likely.

Quote

Senator Mitch McConnell, the Republican leader, has told associates that he believes President Trump committed impeachable offenses and that he is pleased that Democrats are moving to impeach him, believing that it will make it easier to purge him from the party, according to people familiar with his thinking. The House is voting on Wednesday to formally charge Mr. Trump with inciting violence against the country.

At the same time, Representative Kevin McCarthy of California, the minority leader and one of Mr. Trump’s most steadfast allies in Congress, has asked other Republicans whether he should call on Mr. Trump to resign in the aftermath of the riot at the Capitol last week, according to three Republican officials briefed on the conversations.

 

[fruitvilla]

6 minutes ago, Awol said:

The military follow legal orders, especially when it comes to orders for the release of nuclear weapons. That’s how it works. 

So if today a responsible general somewhere received a command from Trump to Nuke Tehran, 9 to 15 million people, the general will just say yes sir, get those with proximate responsibilities to do the deed? Just like that?

I sincerely hope not. 

[Awol]

2 minutes ago, LondonLax said:

Pelosi’s statement was just political theatre. She’s building pressure on Republicans who still support Trump, not trying to alter the military chain of command.

Agreed that’s her political intent, but she put out her own record of the conversation, in which she raised..etc etc. It’s politicking gone badly wrong, for her at least. 

The reassuring thing is Biden not having any part in the hysteria and giving it the Fonz from the background. Calm and stable is just what the doctor ordered. 

[Awol]

3 minutes ago, fruitvilla said:

So if today a responsible general somewhere received a command from Trump to Nuke Tehran, 9 to 15 million people, the general will just say yes sir, get those with proximate responsibilities to do the deed? Just like that?

I sincerely hope not. 

Yep.
 

[DCJonah]

14 minutes ago, legov said:

Seems like McConnell is on board with the whole impeachment thing - which should make conviction much more likely.

 

I'd love that to be true but just can't see it. 

[chrisp65]

We’d have to hope that the U.S. had it’s own Stanislav Petrov

[HanoiVillan]

I think people on this thread should take the implication of the National Guard going out when ordered by Mike Pence, not Donald Trump, more seriously than they are doing. To say the 'chain of command cannot be broken' is absurd when we know it was broken on Wednesday afternoon.

The mob invaded the Capitol. Donald Trump refused to do anything, for whatever reason. So Mike Pence calls the Chief of Staff. The Chief of Staff has three options; firstly, he can call out the National Guard and bypass the chain of command.. Or he can say 'well, the Senate need to vote to impeach the President and then the Guard can be called out'. Or he can sat 'tough shit, this is how American democracy dies because I will not break the chain of command'. 

The 'the chain of command is never broken and the military never exercise their judgement in a crisis' folks must be surprised that option 3 is not in fact the option that occurred in real life. Option 1 is the one that actually occurred. The system rerouted around the obstacle.

Now, bear in mind that the idea that the military would unquestioningly fire nuclear weapons at random if the Mad King told them to is also reliant on this idea that they never exercise judgement in a genuine crisis.

[chrisp65]

It’s almost as though ‘just carrying out orders’ is no longer legitimate and can be ‘trumped’ by basic humanity.

 

[Awol]

Just now, chrisp65 said:

It’s almost as though ‘just carrying out orders’ is no longer legitimate and can be ‘trumped’ by basic humanity.

 

An order to shoot kids is illegal, an order (properly authorised) to nuke the city they live in is not. Not a comment on the morality of it, but the reality of it. 

[sidcow]

Haven't they famously run mock tests for nuclear launch and most individuals failed to make the launch and that's why they were replaced with automated systems. 

Then Generals I am sure would still make a human decision. 

I'm sure if there was a known emergency involving a major protagonist and they were at Defcon 1 then they would do their duty. 

I'm equally certain that if they were at Defcon 5 and told to Nuke Scotland, there would be questions asked and discussions about the President being in his right mind. 

In fact I wouldn't be suprised if there is an official protocol in place. 

Edited January 12, 2021 by sidcow

[Awol]

11 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

I think people on this thread should take the implication of the National Guard going out when ordered by Mike Pence, not Donald Trump, more seriously than they are doing. To say the 'chain of command cannot be broken' is absurd when we know it was broken on Wednesday afternoon.

The mob invaded the Capitol. Donald Trump refused to do anything, for whatever reason. So Mike Pence calls the Chief of Staff. The Chief of Staff has three options; firstly, he can call out the National Guard and bypass the chain of command.. Or he can say 'well, the Senate need to vote to impeach the President and then the Guard can be called out'. Or he can sat 'tough shit, this is how American democracy dies because I will not break the chain of command'. 

The 'the chain of command is never broken and the military never exercise their judgement in a crisis' folks must be surprised that option 3 is not in fact the option that occurred in real life. Option 1 is the one that actually occurred. The system rerouted around the obstacle.

Now, bear in mind that the idea that the military would unquestioningly fire nuclear weapons at random if the Mad King told them to is also reliant on this idea that they never exercise judgement in a genuine crisis.

From what I can gather Trump absented himself from the chain of command (didn’t answer his phone) during the riots, and was ringing around senators (on someone else’s phone) asking them to overturn the election...

After 90 minutes of this, Pence, as the next most senior link in that chain after the President, gave the order to DOD to deploy the Guard. 

That’s all irrelevant to the original point, if Trump gives a legal order to the military then they will follow it because he’s their CiC and they have to.