U.S. Politics

[meregreen]

With regards to Trumps assertion that many of the anti fascist demonstrators were "bad" people. I wondered what his reaction would have been if large numbers of Germans had forcefully opposed the Brown shirts on the streets of Germany in the 1930's. I rather think they would be regarded as heroic for standing up to Hitler's henchmen. Different time and place , but the principle is the same. 

[magnkarl]

2 hours ago, mjmooney said:

Arguably the most significant factor in any war is the way the victors deal with the defeated. Look at the two world wars. After WWI, Germany was hammered with punitive financial reparations. The result was economic catastrophe and seething resentment that made ideal conditions for the rise of the Nazis. The lesson was learned after WWII, and the Marshall Plan was created to do the exact opposite - pump in money and aid to trigger regeneration in (West) Germany and Japan. It worked. 

The American Civil War was more like WWI, in that the defeated southern states experienced years of deprivation during the so-called 'Reconstruction' era - northern 'carpetbaggers' asset-stripping anything they could get their hands on. And with the collapse of the slaveholding economy, things were no better for the former slaves, most of whom simply became poor unemployed, even worse off than the 'poor white trash'. The divided, resentful society that resulted resonates to the present day. 

It's no wonder that Civil War statues still have this emotive power. 

Well put. The divide still seen in America if you look at old Confederacy states vs. Union states in poverty is striking. For many people in the South Lee fought against an oppressive regime that came in after the war and bled them dry, that involves all industries, not just slavery. It's too simplistic to say that everyone who wants a statue of Lee is doing it because they are fascists and racists. There were many men in the Confederate army that fought for their freedom, place of living and the ability to feed their families. Sanitizing a statue dedicated to the 800.000 men killed or wounded in action on the confederacy side like they pulled down in Durham is nothing short of vandalism. 

Every German town has a plaque with all the names of the soldiers that died in the war even though they were commanded by Nazis. Paying respect to men fallen in battle is not racist in any way. Most of the soldiers were nothing short of cannon fodder with no idea about the political aims of their leaders.

Edited August 18, 2017 by magnkarl

[StefanAVFC]

7 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

Well put. The divide still seen in America if you look at old Confederacy states vs. Union states in poverty is striking.

Yep.

Traditional blue states are richer, provide more GDP, want progressive policies such as healthcare for all.

Traditional red/confed states take more from the government, vote against healthcare, consistently vote Republican who want to gut their communities.

It's a messed up situation.

[magnkarl]

1 minute ago, StefanAVFC said:

Yep.

Traditional blue states are richer, provide more GDP, want progressive policies such as healthcare for all.

Traditional red/confed states take more from the government, vote against healthcare, consistently vote Republican who want to gut their communities.

It's a messed up situation.

A situation that was put in place by unionists forcibly removing most industry from the South after the war. The Soviet Union did the same with most of Eastern Europe after ww2 and these countries are still feeling the effects of that 30 years after the fall of the curtain.

How do you produce GDP if someone comes in and takes all your tools, mills, cattle, seed and materials? But yeah, the Blue states are angels.

[HanoiVillan]

57 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

A situation that was put in place by unionists forcibly removing most industry from the South after the war. The Soviet Union did the same with most of Eastern Europe after ww2 and these countries are still feeling the effects of that 30 years after the fall of the curtain.

How do you produce GDP if someone comes in and takes all your tools, mills, cattle, seed and materials? But yeah, the Blue states are angels.

Do you have a source for the claim that 'forcibly removing most industry' from the South is the primary reason for wealth disparities north and south of the Mason-Dixon line? Because to be honest, it looks distinctly dubious. 

 

[Xann]

 

[chrisp65]

42 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

Do you have a source for the claim that 'forcibly removing most industry' from the South is the primary reason for wealth disparities north and south of the Mason-Dixon line? Because to be honest, it looks distinctly dubious. 

 

Only 10% of the south's population lived in areas classed as 'urban' in 1860. 80% of all southern production, employment and wealth came directly from agriculture. Most that were not directly employed in agriculture were employed getting crops away by train or via ports. The only city of significant size throughout the entire south was New Orleans which had no other industry apart from that already mentioned. Only a third of the railway lines were in the south.

To the north, only 40% of people worked in agriculture. Pre 1860 they had 92% of all the steel production, 85% of all the factories.

Two minutes on google.

 

[snowychap]

7 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Two minutes on google.

Not from a rotating lecturer, then?

[magnkarl]

 

1 hour ago, HanoiVillan said:

Do you have a source for the claim that 'forcibly removing most industry' from the South is the primary reason for wealth disparities north and south of the Mason-Dixon line? Because to be honest, it looks distinctly dubious. 

 

To follow up on Chris' post. Here's an illustration.

As you can see, any exports (facilities, boats, ports) were decimated by the trade being moved to New York. Most farms were commandeered, and agriculture was moved up to the North States or put in the hands of people profiting from the war. Railroads were moved or destroyed, and the total manufacture output by the South went from 10% to around 2%.

To believe anything else than that the North treated the South with utter disdain, looted, pillaged and ruined industry is very blue eyed and naive. As usual in war the victors wrote the history, painted a whole swathe of the country as slave holders and made it hard for the South for generations to come.

Edited August 18, 2017 by magnkarl

[magnkarl]

3 hours ago, meregreen said:

With regards to Trumps assertion that many of the anti fascist demonstrators were "bad" people. I wondered what his reaction would have been if large numbers of Germans had forcefully opposed the Brown shirts on the streets of Germany in the 1930's. I rather think they would be regarded as heroic for standing up to Hitler's henchmen. Different time and place , but the principle is the same. 

The brown-shirts of the Weimar Republic were opposed by the red-shirts of the far left communist party. They had street battles in most of Germany's big cities. Many would argue that this violence from both sides spiraled Germany into electing Adolf to stop the violence. 

If you think that the brown shirts were unopposed in Germany I'd suggest reading up on the Roter Frontkämpferbund.

[Straggler]

19 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

The brown-shirts of the Weimar Republic were opposed by the red-shirts of the far left communist party. They had street battles in most of Germany's big cities. Many would argue that this violence from both sides spiraled Germany into electing Adolf to stop the violence. 

If you think that the brown shirts were unopposed in Germany I'd suggest reading up on the Roter Frontkämpferbund.

Please forgive me if this seems frivolous, but is Frontkämpferbund German for Lambert's hairstyle?

[snowychap]

33 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

Here's an illustration.

As you're quoting data to 'illustrate' something, would you care to give the site a link to the source for it, please?

[meregreen]

1 hour ago, magnkarl said:

The brown-shirts of the Weimar Republic were opposed by the red-shirts of the far left communist party. They had street battles in most of Germany's big cities. Many would argue that this violence from both sides spiraled Germany into electing Adolf to stop the violence. 

If you think that the brown shirts were unopposed in Germany I'd suggest reading up on the Roter Frontkämpferbund.

It was the mass unemployment of the Great Depression which propelled Hitler to power. And his blaming of the Jews for Germanys economic plight.The Brown shirts had absolutely nothing to do with the Weimar Republic, they were a far right private para military force. After Hitler's election as Chancellor in 1933, most if not all of those Communists were rounded up and put into concentration camps. So Not much opposition there I think. My point stands, if ordinary Germans had come out on the streets to confront Hitler's henchmen, they would today be regarded as heroic. Crystal Nacht to me has similarities with those scum bags chanting anti Jewish slogans while marching with their flaming torches. These bastards need to be confronted. A brave young woman lost her life doing just that. No amount of deflecting prevarication by Trump should be tolerated.

Edited August 18, 2017 by meregreen

[magnkarl]

58 minutes ago, meregreen said:

It was the mass unemployment of the Great Depression which propelled Hitler to power. And his blaming of the Jews for Germanys economic plight.The Brown shirts had absolutely nothing to do with the Weimar Republic, they were a far right private para military force. After Hitler's election as Chancellor in 1933, most if not all of those Communists were rounded up and put into concentration camps. So Not much opposition there I think. My point stands, if ordinary Germans had come out on the streets to confront Hitler's henchmen, they would today be regarded as heroic. Crystal Nacht to me has similarities with those scum bags chanting anti Jewish slogans while marching with their flaming torches. These bastards need to be confronted. A brave young woman lost her life doing just that. No amount of deflecting prevarication by Trump should be tolerated.

Weimar Republic - was an unofficial, historical designation for the German state between 1919 and 1933. 

Brownshirts - Sturmabteilung played a significant role in Adolf Hitler's rise to power in the 1920s and 1930s.

Is it me or does a paramilitary group existing in the exact time when the German state was called the Weimar republic which fought in the street, harrassed Jews and Romani, smashed up opposition groups' hq's and so on seem a lot like someone that had a tad more to do with the forming of the Nazi Party in said era than 'nothing'?

Koepp's book on Conservative Paramilitaries in the Weimar Republic states that the whole populace was tired of the constant infighting as well as the economic problems in Germany. Hitler promised to deal with it, so it is one of the contributing factors to why he got elected.

Quote

Paramilitary groups were quite active in the ill-fated Republic, sometimes used to seize power and other times to quell disturbances. Freikorps were used in the Baltic region in 1919 by General Rüdiger von der Goltz to protect German interests against Russia. Other Freikorps members engaged in sabotage acts against French and Belgian occupying forces in the Ruhr in 1923 by blowing up bridges. Yet other Freikorps orchestrated the Kapp Putsch and the Beer Hall Putsch. The Communists used their groups to seize power in several places in the Weimar Republic at different times, forming Räterepubliken. Other paramilitary groups were used to quell these uprisings. Freikorps events are displayed in the Weimar Timeline.

The political parties used their paramilitary groups to protect their party gatherings and to disrupt the marches and meetings of their opponents. Between 1928 and 1932, the Weimar Republic experienced a growth of political violence between these organizations euphemistically called Zusammenstösse (lit. clashes). For instance in 1930, the Nazis claimed 17 fatalities and the Communists 44 fatalities in these Zusammenstössen. Scores were injured; in 1930, 2,500 Nazis were injured and in 1932, 9,715. (1)

Don't underestimate how tired people get of continued rioting and violence. Hopefully these KKK idiots bring Trump down and inspire some actual fresh air into the White House. 

Edited August 18, 2017 by magnkarl

[tomsky_11]

2 hours ago, magnkarl said:

 

To follow up on Chris' post. Here's an illustration.

As you can see, any exports (facilities, boats, ports) were decimated by the trade being moved to New York. Most farms were commandeered, and agriculture was moved up to the North States or put in the hands of people profiting from the war. Railroads were moved or destroyed, and the total manufacture output by the South went from 10% to around 2%.

To believe anything else than that the North treated the South with utter disdain, looted, pillaged and ruined industry is very blue eyed and naive. As usual in war the victors wrote the history, painted a whole swathe of the country as slave holders and made it hard for the South for generations to come.

Was the war not still going until 1865?

[meregreen]

23 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

Weimar Republic - was an unofficial, historical designation for the German state between 1919 and 1933. 

Brownshirts - Sturmabteilung played a significant role in Adolf Hitler's rise to power in the 1920s and 1930s.

Is it me or does a paramilitary group existing in the exact time when the German state was called the Weimar republic which fought in the street, harrassed Jews and Romani, smashed up opposition groups' hq's and so on seem a lot like someone that had a tad more to do with the forming of the Nazi Party in said era than 'nothing'?

Koepp's book on Conservative Paramilitaries in the Weimar Republic states that the whole populace was tired of the constant infighting as well as the economic problems in Germany. Hitler promised to deal with it, so it is one of the contributing factors to why he got elected.

Don't underestimate how tired people get of continued rioting and violence. Hopefully these KKK idiots bring Trump down and inspire some actual fresh air into the White House. 

The Nazis were not formed by the Weimar Republic they were simply formed in it. The last part of your post I endorse 100 per cent. 

[villakram]

I listened to a fantastic podcast a few weeks back talking about the development of that anti-jew laws in Nazi Germany circa 1935/36 and how the minutes of a meeting of the highest legal types trying to push further laws about/against the Jewish/minority population came to light. Anyway, the point is take a guess which country was referenced as the country whose legal system Germany should base their laws on... No decision was reached at said meeting and a couple of weeks later events (led by the extremists) on the ground changed things quite radically.

Also, further to the discussion of Pershing and the Philippines. The US has a long long history of brutal imperial actions. Well worth a read.

https://www.juancole.com/2017/08/barcelona-occupation-filipino.html

"In one of the most shameful and brutal actions of the American Empire, the US repressed Filipino uprisings, becoming responsible for killing 20,000 freedom fighters and 400,000 civilians. When villages rose up or sheltered guerrillas, the Americans ruthlessly rounded them up and put them in concentration camps, where unsanitary conditions led to disease outbreaks."

[peterms]

Bannon the latest man overboard.

Trump doesn't seem to be too good at holding on to his key supporters.

At what point will the White House be renamed the Marie Celeste?

[NurembergVillan]

Unless it's a secret plot to put Bannon back in charge of Breitbart where he can do more damage on behalf of the administration?

[peterms]

1 minute ago, NurembergVillan said:

Unless it's a secret plot to put Bannon back in charge of Breitbart where he can do more damage on behalf of the administration?

It can't be a secret plot, or Trump would have tweeted it.