Popular Post VILLAMARV Posted February 9, 2017 Popular Post Share Posted February 9, 2017 5 hours ago, Xann said: There are a number of words that fit in that humanity slot, like: 'basic common sense', 'survival' and 'decency'. While every one in this thread is rightfully worried about the direction the US is heading militarily, geo politically, economically and domestically and everyone in the EU thread is rightfully worried about the UK disentangling itself from 40 years of legal framework built with Europe; surely, whatever side of the political fence you may associate with we all come from a fairly commonly shared humanitarian perspective. Whether I am right to assume this may be my own personal folly, but I rarely come across people who disagree with the basic premise of the NHS, I rarely meet people who revel in the news footage of starving or oppressed peoples. Whilst I do meet people who believe warring over access to raw materials, warring for political power, and war for economic gain have some value to the idea of us and others as a nation state, none truly believe it is beneficial to the human race. Whilst we can bicker over the petty differences of opinion we have (and don't get me wrong it's fun to point and laugh occasionally, especially at someone with all "the best words" for example) what is most painful to me is the lost opportunity. In the US things are blatantly coming to a head. IF and i stress IF it's a toss up between the people rising up against Trump and reclaiming some lost legal framework and establishing some basic human rights for everyone and the Government cracking down to consolidate it's fading power I know sadly which outcome sounds more probable to me. In the UK we are literally now engaged in a process of rewriting some fundamental legal framework and my own, possibly cynical view, is that the same probability applies this side of the Atlantic. I honestly feel we are at a point in human history that will be defining. What a shame we are engaged in the squabbles over immigration numbers for example, rather than asking the question of "what type of globalisation do we want?". It's here. The technological age is upon us. How badly as as a species do we have to treat each other until we realise the dam we are plugging is unfit for purpose exactly? What role do arbitrary lines on a map, different currencies, international treaties, tariffs, protectionism and war, corporate entities and so on have to play in the advancement of humanity? Because for all the differences of language, culture, power, wealth and genetics we have around the globe, we are all human beings. It's the fear of this global realisation that we see treaties like TTIP, TPP and TISA being drafted in near secrecy, as much as it is in retaliation to the economic rise of China imo. Everything globally being defined by the actions of a country with the largest military capability the world has ever seen. Countries like us and Japan among many others who are duty bound to follow suit, not least due to the amount of US nuclear missile silos our countries contain (and for all the political and economic posturing nukes still tend to win the argument). The buliding of the US global empire is undeniable. Russia and China for all their strengths are unlikely to want to provoke any war with the US. So while I agree with @Rodders point and have to accept the pragmatist realities of playing Realpolitik as most of us do, I also see it has had a massive, massive influence on getting us to where we are. The narrowing of the political debate in the US since McCarthyism is as much to blame for the rise of Trump as anything else imo. Creating an atmosphere where a moderate like Sanders is seen by many as the epitome of communism. The only thing that ultimately defines the status quo is our willingness to accept it. 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rodders Posted February 9, 2017 Share Posted February 9, 2017 well said, and on that note, I'm put in mind to watch La Grand Illusion all over again. Made in the 1930s but typically prescient over all the nonsense that is set up to divide. Fear is debilitating, and the helplessness was also referred to in a cartoon posted by @mjmooney adding to the cliched quote about forgetting the past, notes that historians remember the past, but must sit helplessly by as those who don't stampede onwards to doing it all over again ( a paraphrase there ). That sense of futility also contributes to that acceptance really. The division is entirely intentional of course, Chomsky said something about ensuring that the parameters of debate are controlled thusly: that whilst debate and disagreement is accepted, it must be limited to a very narrow set, where the most furious of passions can be unleashed, but don't let the buggers talk about anything else, or the circumstances surrounding their condition. Most people should be far more in sync about where the problems lie than they are, there should be far more solidarity between communities, yet what wins out and is encouraged? A sort of testosterone fuelled desire for dominance and ownership, of depriving others and excluding even more. The worst instincts are continually pandered too and encouraged, because those in thrall to frankly bronze age passions about borders, winners and losers ( framed respectively as "deserving" of the label ), ins and outs, are far easily marshaled and corralled like animals. Ensure that on that hierarchy of needs scale, people are fretting about survival, rent, security ( needlessly, thanks to woeful distribution of wealth ) and there's no energy to think properly. It's not all that, we could always be better too, one cannot deny all those traits are very regular and normal and we have responsibilities to be better, but when everything else seems overwhelmingly impossible, then expectations get reduced. damn, this thread always makes me cry out for alcohol :/ 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted February 9, 2017 Moderator Share Posted February 9, 2017 The main difficulty in resisting the dangers facing our world is that we still approach them with the language of politics, whereas the theatre of struggle has moved to economics. He's a caricature of a ridiculous, pompous dictator - he might sneak some things through, he might help the market's tendrils reach new parts of the US social structure - but what he'll definitely do is enrich the notion that government is hopeless, that it's clumsy and outdated and that it should be encouraged wherever possible not to interfere with our lives - a notion put forward by those who would profit from them. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted February 9, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted February 9, 2017 The 'theatre of struggle' has been economics since the moment money became a thing. And it's been entangled in politics since about 5 minutes afterwards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted February 9, 2017 Author Share Posted February 9, 2017 @VILLAMARV Nice post. Sometimes I think that the power brokers in the US must regret capitulating to the NRA to the degree that they have. The result is a populace that is armed to the teeth. Charismatic grassroots leaders have traditionally been assassinated in this country before they could do too much damage to the status quo. But with things the way they are now, and the way they will be when working class Trump voters realize they've been duped, we'll have no shortage of people who will be happy to take up arms behind some local hero. All signs point to complete breakdown. It might take 20 years, but I think the USA is on it's last legs as a cohesive nation state. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted February 9, 2017 Moderator Share Posted February 9, 2017 36 minutes ago, Chindie said: The 'theatre of struggle' has been economics since the moment money became a thing. And it's been entangled in politics since about 5 minutes afterwards. It has now won that entanglement - and it's starting to run out of things to eat. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VILLAMARV Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 1 hour ago, maqroll said: @VILLAMARV Nice post. Sometimes I think that the power brokers in the US must regret capitulating to the NRA to the degree that they have. The result is a populace that is armed to the teeth. Charismatic grassroots leaders have traditionally been assassinated in this country before they could do too much damage to the status quo. But with things the way they are now, and the way they will be when working class Trump voters realize they've been duped, we'll have no shortage of people who will be happy to take up arms behind some local hero. All signs point to complete breakdown. It might take 20 years, but I think the USA is on it's last legs as a cohesive nation state. I tend to agree with you about the guns. Not exactly my country of choice to implement a military crackdown on civilians lets put it that way. But that's the path he's chosen. He is no fool and knows he has to keep the rabble he's roused firmly in the box. How exactly he feels he's going to be able to do that over the next few years is anyone's guess at this point but while the play of pointing the finger at the left (or your guys' version of it at least ) and at people being mobbed by students *sigh* and at the fake news media is working he'll keep doing it. He HAS to find an economic sweetener for his supporter base for me or like you say things could get twitchy fast. But there's ALOT of love for that flag before the union is in jeopardy surely? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
il_serpente Posted February 10, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted February 10, 2017 7 hours ago, maqroll said: All signs point to complete breakdown. It might take 20 years, but I think the USA is on it's last legs as a cohesive nation state. Steve Bannon is convinced that this is historically inevitable and is doing his best to hurry it along. Very scary ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted February 10, 2017 Author Share Posted February 10, 2017 5 hours ago, VILLAMARV said: I tend to agree with you about the guns. Not exactly my country of choice to implement a military crackdown on civilians lets put it that way. But that's the path he's chosen. He is no fool and knows he has to keep the rabble he's roused firmly in the box. How exactly he feels he's going to be able to do that over the next few years is anyone's guess at this point but while the play of pointing the finger at the left (or your guys' version of it at least ) and at people being mobbed by students *sigh* and at the fake news media is working he'll keep doing it. He HAS to find an economic sweetener for his supporter base for me or like you say things could get twitchy fast. But there's ALOT of love for that flag before the union is in jeopardy surely? Things can change on a dime, history says so. Fact is, this outcome is being telegraphed to us but we don't want to read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brumerican Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post NurembergVillan Posted February 10, 2017 Moderator Popular Post Share Posted February 10, 2017 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 It's actually surreal that the US has a legit buffoon as POTUS. I know people like to call people they don't like or agree with stupid, but this guy is actually a bit of a fool isn't he? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 5 minutes ago, Keyblade said: It's actually surreal that the US has a legit buffoon as POTUS. I know people like to call people they don't like or agree with stupid, but this guy is actually a bit of a fool isn't he? Quote 'I'm, like, a really smart person': Donald Trump Many people are saying that, and a lot of people are saying that Donald Trump is the greatest living example of the Dunning-Kruger effect. And you almost think that. I'm not saying that, this isn't me, many people are though, if, it's just that so many brilliant people say this. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chindie Posted February 10, 2017 VT Supporter Share Posted February 10, 2017 He's not actually that stupid. It's actually a carefully orchestrated and long running campaign tactic that began when he was born. Lots of great people, brilliant people say so, using the best words. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davkaus Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 I can't imagine the failing presidential candidate Hillary has laughed that hard in about 3 months. SAD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 Inspired by the Labour thread, the political compass of the US candidates last year shows just how right wing the country is. Jill Stein was considered a far left kook . She was easily the best candidate though, the only one who actually wanted to do something about the environment for starters, as opposed to completely denying that there's a problem. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 1 hour ago, Keyblade said: Inspired by the Labour thread, the political compass of the US candidates last year shows just how right wing the country is. Jill Stein was considered a far left kook . She was easily the best candidate though, the only one who actually wanted to do something about the environment for starters, as opposed to completely denying that there's a problem. She was a crook who essentially defrauded a large number of voters in swing states in the immediate aftermath of the election, and frankly she should have been punished for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villakram Posted February 10, 2017 Share Posted February 10, 2017 9 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: She was a crook who essentially defrauded a large number of voters in swing states in the immediate aftermath of the election, and frankly she should have been punished for it. and had let's say interesting opinions about vaccinations and other things that she should have known better than to talk about, see also Johnson and Syria. Though Trump does make a nonsense of what I just wrote 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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