Leeds United

[VillaChris]

4 hours ago, Zatman said:

Are Leeds any different than West Ham, another team from around that era who people are nostalgic about them being a superclub

If you look at the 90s Leeds won the title in 92 and from 98-2002 regularly finished top 6. When I was growing up they were a team like us at the top end of the premier league.

Very similar to us in the MON era consistently challenging at the top end of the league but ultimately it was built on sand with the money they were spend and it spectacularly caught up with them in the end as it did us.

That said...I wouldn't be against seeing them back in the prem. They have been away for 12 years now which is incredible, just thinking of the leeds fans who are now 17-18 who have never seen them play a top level fixture....really hope we don't go the same way.

They've served their sentence now. There's so much potential in Leeds aswell...it's actually a really nice city now with plenty to do and had a really good night out there about a year ago. Elland Road is looking a bit outdated now so could do with a lick of paint but so much space around there you could easily rebuild and extend it to 50k + like Newcastle have.

Trouble is they never seem to attract owners who actually have patience, money and a long term plan. Cellino certainly isn't any of that.

If Leeds could attract a Xia type owner they'd be back in business.

[Demitri_C]

11 hours ago, Xela said:

Maybe to modern fans but Leeds - Man United has always been a nasty rivalry and is seen by the older United fans as one of their top rivalries. Man United (and FC United) still sing songs about Leeds!

Liverpool, Leeds and Man City are the main historic Man United rivals.

Most of those older United fans are slowly fading, "the modern fans" are the fans that dominate United nowdays and most that I know dont even recognise Leeds as rivals. The longer they are down here the more that rivalry will die down I think

[BOF]

2 hours ago, Demitri_C said:

Most of those older United fans are slowly fading, "the modern fans" are the fans that dominate United nowdays and most that I know dont even recognise Leeds as rivals. The longer they are down here the more that rivalry will die down I think

Suffice to say that from everything I hear, you're completely wrong and the notion that Spurs are a United rival is actually hilarious.  Being in and around someone in the league placings doesn't make you a traditional rival.  But anyway, I'll leave it there.

[Demitri_C]

1 hour ago, BOF said:

Suffice to say that from everything I hear, you're completely wrong and the notion that Spurs are a United rival is actually hilarious.  Being in and around someone in the league placings doesn't make you a traditional rival.  But anyway, I'll leave it there.

I dont think I am completely wrong at all, I live in London not Manchester granted so most of the United fans I know are in London (all ages and I know a hell of a lot) there is probabaly almost a smany unite dfans down here as Manchester! But anyway to the point I guess its all about geographics like you say the tradional old school united fans that in Manchester probably see leeds as rivals, but the London mancs and co not from Manchester dont see Leeds as rivals at all. The above example about spurs shows that they see Spurs as rivals (and they are not to them) comparing how meaningless leeds are to them

[Rugeley Villa]

I know a few United fans and tbf they don't really see Leeds as rivals anymore. Liverpool is the main one followed by Manchester city, especially now city are a force. Obviously the one off game against Leeds will always attract interest but they are small fry to united fans. Leeds have a lot of rivals up north, Midlands and London. I think we only have local rivals, but a case could be made for Newcastle these days. 

[Demitri_C]

1 hour ago, Rugeley Villa said:

I know a few United fans and tbf they don't really see Leeds as rivals anymore. Liverpool is the main one followed by Manchester city, especially now city are a force. Obviously the one off game against Leeds will always attract interest but they are small fry to united fans. Leeds have a lot of rivals up north, Midlands and London. I think we only have local rivals, but a case could be made for Newcastle these days. 

yeah it seems thats media trying to stir it up. I would say everton are rivals when we were up, long history with them. But I think its more of a respect rivalry with them

[Rugeley Villa]

1 hour ago, Demitri_C said:

yeah it seems thats media trying to stir it up. I would say everton are rivals when we were up, long history with them. But I think its more of a respect rivalry with them

Yes hyped up by the media and also by both sets of supporters, well not all of us because tbf although I don't like Newcastle I don't see them as rivals at all. Us and Everton is all about respect.

[bobzy]

On 22/11/2016 at 18:39, Zatman said:

Are Leeds any different than West Ham, another team from around that era who people are nostalgic about them being a superclub

"Superclub" is a bit ridiculous but, in my lifetime, Leeds have generally held a big stature in the game.  I seem to remember them being constantly top 4 and having a run to the semi-finals of the Champions League at one point - plus they've won the top division (was it the season before the Premier League came about?).

Just not like West Ham at all.

[kurtsimonw]

Although, you are what you are to an extent. Leeds spent nearly a decade in the 80s in the 2nd tier of English football. Yet I still hear people saying "A club like Leeds shouldn't be down there for this long!" Yet here we are again, a decade in the lower leagues.

For them to equal out their lower league seasons with top flight seasons, you'd have to go back to nearly Revie era Leeds. 

Overall 50 years as a top flight club, 39 as a lower league club. Pretty bad that.

Edited November 26, 2016 by kurtsimonw

[VillaChris]

True but they do have regular top 6 prem in living memory just like us.

I'd be interested to know how many top 6 finishes West Ham have had in the last 30 seasons.

[Zatman]

3 hours ago, VillaChris said:

 

I'd be interested to know how many top 6 finishes West Ham have had in the last 30 seasons.

about  though most of them were in Championship

[Ikantcpell]

[The_Rev]

On 26/11/2016 at 11:49, VillaChris said:

True but they do have regular top 6 prem in living memory just like us.

I'd be interested to know how many top 6 finishes West Ham have had in the last 30 seasons.

5th in 1998/99

3rd in 1985/86

 

That's it. 

[Rugeley Villa]

Can't compare Leeds and West Ham. West Ham may be in the prem playing Infront of 50k most weeks but Leeds are are a much better club.

[VillaChris]

9 hours ago, Rugeley Villa said:

Can't compare Leeds and West Ham. West Ham may be in the prem playing Infront of 50k most weeks but Leeds are are a much better club.

Tell that to the press.

Even before the stadium move the amount of back page stories West Ham get for their achievements is ridiculous.

[HanoiVillan]

7 hours ago, VillaChris said:

Tell that to the press.

Even before the stadium move the amount of back page stories West Ham get for their achievements is ridiculous.

Well, that's cos they're in Landon, innit. 

If you need to interview a supporter, you can call up an old housemate, or failing that, any sort of domestic tradesman, for a quote, and if for some unknown reason you actually need to visit the ground, you can still use your Oyster card. They've even got proper bars and restaurants for People Like Us in East London, it's not all jellied eels and Barbara Windsor's tits these days. 

[TrentVilla]

On 22/11/2016 at 23:01, VillaChris said:

There's so much potential in Leeds aswell...it's actually a really nice city now with plenty to do and had a really good night out there about a year ago. Elland Road is looking a bit outdated now so could do with a lick of paint but so much space around there you could easily rebuild and extend it to 50k + like Newcastle have.

It's a great city, I lived there for three years and loved it so know how big the fan base is in the city and in South Yorkshire. 

The fan base though is about the only thing the club has going for it. 

With the exception of two or three very brief (and still fairly unsuccessful) periods they've never really been a top club.

Their support is actually out of all proportion to the size and success of the club, much like Sunderland and Newcastle who like Leeds have a large undiluted catchment area but for the glory hunters.

These one club cities have sides that enjoy large support despite never really having achieved very much.

How much potential Leeds have is rather debateable. You say Elland Road needs updating and could be extended but I'm guessing you aren't aware they don't own it?

They lost it as part of the debts death spiral of the post Risdale era and currently pay £1.5m a year in rent. As for that land the owners are trying to get permission for retail development on it.

Oh and guess what they don't own their own training ground any more either that got sold off. They currently pay out £430k a year, rising by 3% a year for the next 17 years. There was even a time when they didn't own the club shop.

I realise these are historical problems caused by previous mismanagement but their legacy remains and so does its impact on any potential the club may have.

Despite the fan base and the lack of meaningful squad investment they are still losing money. This despite Cellino having pumped significant amounts into the club in his time there.

So I'd say there isn't really any potential there at all, just a club with more fans than they probably deserve and now way to capitalise on it.

 

[bobzy]

3 hours ago, TrentVilla said:

Their support is actually out of all proportion to the size and success of the club, much like Sunderland and Newcastle who like Leeds have a large undiluted catchment area but for the glory hunters.

These one club cities have sides that enjoy large support despite never really having achieved very much.

...

So I'd say there isn't really any potential there at all, just a club with more fans than they probably deserve and now way to capitalise on it.

This "one club city" stuff is so misleading - especially with Newcastle and Sunderland as the cities are just nowhere near the size of, say, Birmingham.

Even with the "dilution" of fans for other teams (for Birmingham, what, Villa/Blues/West Brom/Walsall?) you've got a population of 1.3m, plus loads of fans in heavily populated towns around the city (I'm from Solihull and a Villa fan).  Newcastle is 290k, Sunderland 180k.  Leeds is much bigger (800k), but also has a couple of other clubs (Bradford and Huddersfield) in close proximity - closer than we are to Wolves.  It's a massively successful Rugby League city and has a large fanbase following that - not to mention the dilution of fans who support the traditional "big clubs" like Man Utd and Liverpool (much like Birmingham).

It's probably true across the whole country.  The biggest cities (London, Birmingham, Manchester) will have a few clubs with large followings whereas smaller cities (Nottingham, Sheffield, Liverpool, Bristol) will have a couple and further cities (Leicester, Southampton, Coventry, Newcastle, Sunderland) will have one.

That some small cities have clubs that are able to attract 50k fans week in, week out is quite amazing - it's not "likely" nor something that should be knocked.  For the size of city and relative pull, we actually do pretty badly attendance-wise.

[TrentVilla]

 

Yes we do I completely agree we are.

I disagree slightly on some other elements of the above but don't want to get into a debate on it as I always try and avoid anything about club sizes or fan bases.

It was just a small part of the larger point I was making about Leeds.

 

[kurtsimonw]

56 minutes ago, bobzy said:

This "one club city" stuff is so misleading - especially with Newcastle and Sunderland as the cities are just nowhere near the size of, say, Birmingham.

It's been mentioned elsewhere a few times. Size of the city isn't really what people are talking about - for example nobody is saying "Brentford only get 10k in an area of 9 million people!?" But it's the catchment area. Brentford play next door to Chelsea, Fulham and QPR. In the same region as Arsenal, Spurs, West Ham. So it's easy to see why they have a small attendance. 

Newcastle/Sunderland really don't have any kind of competition for fans. Within 80 miles their 'rival' league clubs?
Boro: 6 top 10 finishes since WW2.
Morcamble: A league club since 2008
Carlisle: 1 season as a top flight club, ever (1975)
Hartlepool: Never played in the top 2 tiers of English football
Darlington: 2 seasons ever in the old 2nd division (both in the 20s)

After that, you basically get to semi-pro type clubs. That's within 80 miles, it's a fairly decent distance.

To put that in to perspective, we're closer to:
Man U, Man City, Liverpool, Everton, Sheff Wednesday, Sheff United, Derby, Forest, County, Leicester, Stoke, Albion, Wolves, small heath, Coventry - then all the Lancashire lot

Now I wouldn't say United, Liverpool, etc. are in any way local, that the location of their teams takes support away from us (just a few local glory hunters). But that just strengthens how easy it is for those 2 to get support. If United/Liverpool don't take support from us being 80 miles away, Newcastle have nobody to take that support away. That's where Leeds/Newcastle/Sunderland have that huge catchment area. The 80 miles between them, they're basically the only clubs.