mjmooney Posted November 9, 2021 Author VT Supporter Share Posted November 9, 2021 1 hour ago, PussEKatt said: Dosent the frozen hard soil harm the plants at all ? That's the point. I know it sounds counterintuitive, but the subsoil freezes less under snow than it would if left bare, but cold. Somebody better qualified than me can explain the science, but I'm guessing that the snow contains lots of air pockets which act as insulation. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted November 9, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted November 9, 2021 6 hours ago, PussEKatt said: Dosent the frozen hard soil harm the plants at all ? Sounds like a silly question but I have only seen snow in a christmas card and from a distance when I was in Nepal. Some plants actually flower in Winter and can take all the frost and snow you can throw at them. Many are just dormant and will flower again next summer. Early Spring flowers like daffodils and snowdrops will happily live in Snow and frost as they are really early starters and will inevitably get caught in frozen weather. Probably due to Global Warming but I've seen Daffodils in flower at New Year recently. The shoots will start breaking ground in December generally, in fact the leaves are currently still falling from the trees but I was having a look at the weekend to see if any early shoots were showing. I love it when the spring flowers arrive, gives a real sense of optimism and change. This was especially poignant last February when the vaccine program had really started to kick in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
useless Posted November 9, 2021 Share Posted November 9, 2021 Do whales have one field of vision like presumably most mamals because what each of the two eye sees merges into one image, or because they have two eyes one in each side of their head, do they have two seperate fields of vision, one to the right and the other to the left... I've been wondering this ever since I read this passage in Moby Dick earlier this year... Spoiler 'Now, from this peculiar sideway position of the whale’s eyes, it is plain that he can never see an object which is exactly ahead, no more than he can one exactly astern. In a word, the position of the whale’s eyes corresponds to that of a man’s ears; and you may fancy, for yourself, how it would fare with you, did you sideways survey objects through your ears. You would find that you could only command some thirty degrees of vision in advance of the straight side-line of sight; and about thirty more behind it. If your bitterest foe were walking straight towards you, with dagger uplifted in broad day, you would not be able to see him, any more than if he were stealing upon you from behind. In a word, you would have two backs, so to speak; but, at the same time, also, two fronts (side fronts): for what is it that makes the front of a man—what, indeed, but his eyes? Moreover, while in most other animals that I can now think of, the eyes are so planted as imperceptibly to blend their visual power, so as to produce one picture and not two to the brain; the peculiar position of the whale’s eyes, effectually divided as they are by many cubic feet of solid head, which towers between them like a great mountain separating two lakes in valleys; this, of course, must wholly separate the impressions which each independent organ imparts. The whale, therefore, must see one distinct picture on this side, and another distinct picture on that side; while all between must be profound darkness and nothingness to him. Man may, in effect, be said to look out on the world from a sentry-box with two joined sashes for his window. But with the whale, these two sashes are separately inserted, making two distinct windows, but sadly impairing the view. This peculiarity of the whale’s eyes is a thing always to be borne in mind in the fishery; and to be remembered by the reader in some subsequent scenes.' I googled it and from a click glance it seems the answer is not known... I can't imagine what it would be like to have to seperate fields of vision completely independent of each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted November 9, 2021 VT Supporter Share Posted November 9, 2021 10 minutes ago, useless said: Do whales have one field of vision like presumably most mamals because what each of the two eye sees merges into one image, or because they have two eyes one in each side of their head, do they have two seperate fields of vision, one to the right and the other to the left... I've been wondering this ever since I read this passage in Moby Dick earlier this year... Reveal hidden contents 'Now, from this peculiar sideway position of the whale’s eyes, it is plain that he can never see an object which is exactly ahead, no more than he can one exactly astern. In a word, the position of the whale’s eyes corresponds to that of a man’s ears; and you may fancy, for yourself, how it would fare with you, did you sideways survey objects through your ears. You would find that you could only command some thirty degrees of vision in advance of the straight side-line of sight; and about thirty more behind it. If your bitterest foe were walking straight towards you, with dagger uplifted in broad day, you would not be able to see him, any more than if he were stealing upon you from behind. In a word, you would have two backs, so to speak; but, at the same time, also, two fronts (side fronts): for what is it that makes the front of a man—what, indeed, but his eyes? Moreover, while in most other animals that I can now think of, the eyes are so planted as imperceptibly to blend their visual power, so as to produce one picture and not two to the brain; the peculiar position of the whale’s eyes, effectually divided as they are by many cubic feet of solid head, which towers between them like a great mountain separating two lakes in valleys; this, of course, must wholly separate the impressions which each independent organ imparts. The whale, therefore, must see one distinct picture on this side, and another distinct picture on that side; while all between must be profound darkness and nothingness to him. Man may, in effect, be said to look out on the world from a sentry-box with two joined sashes for his window. But with the whale, these two sashes are separately inserted, making two distinct windows, but sadly impairing the view. This peculiarity of the whale’s eyes is a thing always to be borne in mind in the fishery; and to be remembered by the reader in some subsequent scenes.' I googled it and from a click glance it seems the answer is not known... I can't imagine what it would be like to have to seperate fields of vision completely independent of each other. Ever tried using dual computer monitors? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
useless Posted November 9, 2021 Share Posted November 9, 2021 (edited) That wouldn't make any difference as you'd still be perceiving it with regular human vision, wouldn't be any different to looking at any two objects. The idea is that because of the location of the whale's two eyes, they have two completey independent fields of vision, that is what they see with one eye on the one side of the head doesn't merge with the image that the eye on the other side of the head sees. Probably best to read the Melville quote as I haven't explained it very well. Edited November 9, 2021 by useless Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted November 9, 2021 Author VT Supporter Share Posted November 9, 2021 1 hour ago, useless said: Probably best to read the Melville quote as I haven't explained it very well. Moby-Dick is a fantastic book. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
useless Posted November 9, 2021 Share Posted November 9, 2021 (edited) Yes I really liked it, if I was told that I had to read it again straight away I don't think it would have bothered me. Edit: That said I have been reading a few shorter books since. Edited November 9, 2021 by useless 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhatAboutTheFinish Posted November 10, 2021 Share Posted November 10, 2021 I’ve never been sold on the large parts of Moby Dick that describe, in great detail, different types of whale. As for things I wonder… were Ishmael and Queequeg banging or just good friends? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PussEKatt Posted November 10, 2021 Share Posted November 10, 2021 I havent read Moby Dick because I get sea sick very easily. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjmooney Posted November 10, 2021 Author VT Supporter Share Posted November 10, 2021 52 minutes ago, WhatAboutTheFinish said: I’ve never been sold on the large parts of Moby Dick that describe, in great detail, different types of whale. That's one of the things I liked about it. Read that, and Heathcote Williams' "Whale Nation", and you'll know all there is to know about whales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted November 10, 2021 Share Posted November 10, 2021 On 08/11/2021 at 22:00, useless said: I forgot about rain, I like howling winds too, I remember it coming down the chimney, the chimey somehow working like a musical instrument to modulate the sound of the wind so it howled louder than usual. Edit: Enough of this jazz, the original point is that I'd choose books over music as I could easily do without music. Me too, I used to love the sound of wind whistling down the chimney when I was a kid. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted November 10, 2021 Administrator Share Posted November 10, 2021 20 hours ago, useless said: Do whales have one field of vision like presumably most mamals because what each of the two eye sees merges into one image, or because they have two eyes one in each side of their head, do they have two seperate fields of vision, one to the right and the other to the left... I've been wondering this ever since I read this passage in Moby Dick earlier this year... Reveal hidden contents 'Now, from this peculiar sideway position of the whale’s eyes, it is plain that he can never see an object which is exactly ahead, no more than he can one exactly astern. In a word, the position of the whale’s eyes corresponds to that of a man’s ears; and you may fancy, for yourself, how it would fare with you, did you sideways survey objects through your ears. You would find that you could only command some thirty degrees of vision in advance of the straight side-line of sight; and about thirty more behind it. If your bitterest foe were walking straight towards you, with dagger uplifted in broad day, you would not be able to see him, any more than if he were stealing upon you from behind. In a word, you would have two backs, so to speak; but, at the same time, also, two fronts (side fronts): for what is it that makes the front of a man—what, indeed, but his eyes? Moreover, while in most other animals that I can now think of, the eyes are so planted as imperceptibly to blend their visual power, so as to produce one picture and not two to the brain; the peculiar position of the whale’s eyes, effectually divided as they are by many cubic feet of solid head, which towers between them like a great mountain separating two lakes in valleys; this, of course, must wholly separate the impressions which each independent organ imparts. The whale, therefore, must see one distinct picture on this side, and another distinct picture on that side; while all between must be profound darkness and nothingness to him. Man may, in effect, be said to look out on the world from a sentry-box with two joined sashes for his window. But with the whale, these two sashes are separately inserted, making two distinct windows, but sadly impairing the view. This peculiarity of the whale’s eyes is a thing always to be borne in mind in the fishery; and to be remembered by the reader in some subsequent scenes.' I googled it and from a click glance it seems the answer is not known... I can't imagine what it would be like to have to seperate fields of vision completely independent of each other. Eyes don;t work like cameras. They are a one of many inputs used by the brain to build an internal model providing environmental awareness and assisting with proprioception. It's a mistake to think of fields of vision. The closest living land animal to whales is the hippo. Do you wonder what they see? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted November 10, 2021 Share Posted November 10, 2021 1 minute ago, limpid said: The closest living land animal to whales is the hippo. Do you wonder what they see? Shall report back Friday evening… 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
useless Posted November 10, 2021 Share Posted November 10, 2021 If you're asking me if I wonder how hippos see then you're misunderstanding my point, for hippos can obviously see what's in front of them due to the position of their eyes and the fact they don't have a massive bulk between each eye, like a whale has. 'A whale’s vision is further differentiated from ours in that they have an eye on either side of their head, resulting in two distinct fields of vision, but as to how whales combine the two into a cohesive image, scientists are still unsure Some species with more narrow face shapes, such as dolphins and beluga whales, can see with binocular vision—where they stitch together a single image, the way humans see.' Ocean Find Your View And within that article there's a link with this quote... 'And Johnsen: "They have two completely independent fields of view. God knows what they do with that. The internal perception, how do they represent that? Is it like two screens in their head? Do they stick it together? We don't deal with that because we don't have a region of our field of view that's like that," he said. "For all we know, they represent sonar information as vision. We think they hear a bunch of clicks, but for all we know, it is represented in a visual spatial form in their heads." Then he said something that's key to understanding what we can know about the vision, and maybe the minds of whales: "All we really know is what they can't do." They don't have binocular vision. They couldn't read the big E on a chart at the eye doctor's office. Their ocean is not blue. But when it comes to what it's like *inside* those big heads, we're almost no further along than Melville's guess more than 150 years ago.' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted November 10, 2021 Administrator Share Posted November 10, 2021 3 hours ago, useless said: And within that article there's a link with this quote... 'And Johnsen: "They have two completely independent fields of view. God knows what they do with that..' Perhaps some reading about the neuroscience as it relates to perception rather than authorities which appeal to deities would help in your quest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkyvilla Posted November 10, 2021 Share Posted November 10, 2021 I've wondered about one of my best mates who has eyes that point in different directions (he calls them 'Home' and 'Away') about how much he can see and whether he has blind spots. I've tried his glasses on and the prescription looks very mild, especially compared to mine, so I'm not sure what they are correcting. I've been in the car when he has been driving and it scared the shit out of me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted November 10, 2021 Administrator Share Posted November 10, 2021 10 minutes ago, sharkyvilla said: I've wondered about one of my best mates who has eyes that point in different directions (he calls them 'Home' and 'Away') about how much he can see and whether he has blind spots. I've tried his glasses on and the prescription looks very mild, especially compared to mine, so I'm not sure what they are correcting. I've been in the car when he has been driving and it scared the shit out of me. It's because eyes don't work like cameras. Didn't we just go through this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sharkyvilla Posted November 10, 2021 Share Posted November 10, 2021 5 minutes ago, limpid said: It's because eyes don't work like cameras. Didn't we just go through this? Sorry didn't see all that bit. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
useless Posted November 10, 2021 Share Posted November 10, 2021 I'm not on a quest, in the book Moby Dick the author speculates that whales have two seperate fields of vision because of the position of their eyes... I wondered if that was still believed today, so looked it up and from what I've read (not much because I'm not on a quest, it's just something I wondered) scientists don't know if whales have one field of vision or two. Sonke Johnsen quoted above is a Professor of Biology and has written books on optics... so if he says this... "They have two completely independent fields of view. God knows what they do with that. The internal perception, how do they represent that? Is it like two screens in their head? Do they stick it together? "... I'm liable to go by what he says, and not sure what eyes not being like cameras has to do with anything or why that would preclude the two eyes on each side of a whale from having independent fields of vision. Also the god in 'god knows what they do with that', is a figure of speech and nothing to do with 'appealing to deities'. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
limpid Posted November 10, 2021 Administrator Share Posted November 10, 2021 3 minutes ago, useless said: I'm not on a quest, in the book Moby Dick the author speculates that whales have two seperate fields of vision because of the position of their eyes... I wondered if that was still believed today, so looked it up and from what I've read (not much because I'm not on a quest, it's just something I wondered) scientists don't know if whales have one field of vision or two. Sonke Johnsen quoted above is a Professor of Biology and has written books on optics... so if he says this... "They have two completely independent fields of view. God knows what they do with that. The internal perception, how do they represent that? Is it like two screens in their head? Do they stick it together? "... I'm liable to go by what he says, and not sure what eyes not being like cameras has to do with anything or why that would preclude the two eyes on each side of a whale from having independent fields of vision. Also the god in 'god knows what they do with that', is a figure of speech and nothing to do with 'appealing to deities'. You should read things from neuroscientist to learn about how the brain works, not authors of fiction nor biologists with an interest in optics (which is physics). I'm not surprised that a biologist doesn't know how perception works. If you have a particular interest in how cetaceans perceive things, I'm sure you'll find all kinds of studies on dolphins and porpoises (easier to study than their larger cousins). They see like other mammals do, with lots of different stimuli building an internal model of reality. Many mammals have eyes on the sides of their heads, particularly herbivores. Do you wonder about things without actually having an interest in learning about them? I guess that's up to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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