Bollitics: VT General Election Poll #6 - Leaders Debate 3

[avfc89]

I would feel really uncomfortable with a Tory Government in charge.

[bickster]

I couldn't care less what people look like. I used my postal vote for the Lib Dems, as I think that the Lib Dems have the best policies, and that Clegg would make the best leader.

only reason im not voting lib dems is because of their stance on the euro, we joining disaster. his response was weak about it, and i dont like his stance on immigration either

I thought his response was rather clear, in that yes ultimately he thought we should join the Euro but that right now in the current circumstances it was highly inappropriate and that he thought if such a move was made, it would be after a referendum.

Seems perfectly fair to me, he wasn't hiding anything, said it wasn't going to happen in the near future and if it did happen, it would be with the will of the people.

But if the situation isn't right now, how can you ever be sure that situation will ever be right? And even if it is right, how can you be sure it will stay right? Signing up to something because it's the right thing for that time is foolish if it's not going to be the right thing for all times.

You appear to be addressing me, I was pointing our what Clegg said and how he was quite clear in what he said, which Demitiri said he wasn't.

But as you are addressing me, I suppose I should give you the dignity of a reply. I have no idea what you are on about, I think you're wrong. I think it is perfectly possible to want to do something in the future as being the right thing to do but the conditions at the minute don't allow that to happen.

and if it did happen, it would be with the will of the people.

haven't we heard that from someone else before though ?

Tony Bliar and Labour lied, so Clegg must be a liar too? Thats some fairly big monumental leap you did there Tony.

[Jez]

Just realised that his illegal war had been discovered as just that...

[PauloBarnesi]

Beaver party neck and neck with the BNP. BNP spread hate, the Beaver party just want to spread the joy of the European Beaver

[Ryan.]

Liberals FTW, no tax on my first 10k will do nicely, although I hope he isnt taking it out the other hand by hiking it after that??

[Demitri_C]

If Blair was still the Labour leader would he be doing better?

even though blairs a weasel, he is one hell of a smart guy. he KNEW this was on the horizon and got out ath the right time. smart man

I thought his response was rather clear, in that yes ultimately he thought we should join the Euro but that right now in the current circumstances it was highly inappropriate and that he thought if such a move was made, it would be after a referendum.

Seems perfectly fair to me, he wasn't hiding anything, said it wasn't going to happen in the near future and if it did happen, it would be with the will of the people.

bicks for me he seemed uncertain, very uncertain. ok the pound is not doing great but imagine if we joined now with the whole greece mess, we would really be up the creek. he is in favour of it, and it would be a complete disaster for us to join the euro

the only party to have plan out rejected it is the tories. if he had done that i would hav evoted for him. i think cleggs a gamble, i do like him but i think thr people backing him would seriously make a bigger mess of this country, due to their lack of experience.

i do like his idea about getting all the financial people, and governor of england all together to be honest with the public though. i think a tory-lib dem parliment would do well in this country. i think cameron and clegg could do a good job together, both passionate about the country and seem fresh compared to a glum and stale brown

[TheDon]

But if the situation isn't right now, how can you ever be sure that situation will ever be right? And even if it is right, how can you be sure it will stay right? Signing up to something because it's the right thing for that time is foolish if it's not going to be the right thing for all times.

Making a choice, believing that the timing for making a particular choice is incorrect, believing that the time for making that choice is correct and making the choice not to do something (not just on the basis of 'timing') are all about taking a risk (whether the choice is high risk or so low risk as to be thoroughly negligible).

But you know that so I'm not sure why you made your comment. :?

Because this very idea that we'll join the Euro "when the time is right" ignores the fact that when the time is right, it's not going to stay like that forever. You have to look at how it's going to help or hinder us in future downswings as well, and if it's not right during one of them, then why would we join? You can't just join during a good time and hope the good times carry on forever.

Same applies for staying out Don. Ruling it out forever, kind of closes off something on idealogical grounds.

That depends on if you can recreate the benefits of joining otherwise. There's nothing stopping our currency mimicking the euro when it suits us to be closely aligned to it, therefore giving us a fair amount of the benefits of being in the Euro without actually being in it, whilst retaining the ability to move in a different direction in future if that's what the economy needs.

You appear to be addressing me, I was pointing our what Clegg said and how he was quite clear in what he said, which Demitiri said he wasn't.

But as you are addressing me, I suppose I should give you the dignity of a reply. I have no idea what you are on about, I think you're wrong. I think it is perfectly possible to want to do something in the future as being the right thing to do but the conditions at the minute don't allow that to happen.

I was addressing Clegg's point, but sadly he doesn't post on the forums so instead I had to quote you.

Of course it is, as long as you're going to get a benefit in future that is sustainable.

My point is that due to the nature of economies you can't just go "we'll join when it's right", because by admitting that the situation isn't right now you're admitting it probably won't be right again in the future. So why join something that gives you less control over your economy, when in the future it stands a very good chance that the reasons being stated for not joining now, are likely to exist again.

I really don't understand the logic of just taking the best chance scenario and using that as an argument for joining when it crops up, when that situation isn't going to stay in place forever.

It's one of the five tests that Brown drew up, economic harmonisation. For the Euro to be worth adopting our economy has to be perfectly harmonised with the rest of Europe.

Essentially, is it right to join up at the first time our economy gets close to syncing with the rest of Europe, when there are no guarantees that it will stay that way, and past evidence shows that it won't?

[PauloBarnesi]

I can’t believe Brown quoted Eric Liddell. I fully expect a recreation of the opening of chariots of fire...

[Gringo]

Timing can be important. For instance, the tories put off joining the ERM until sterling was too strong. Maggie wanted a strong pound.

Joining earlier at a more sensible valuation would have prevented the devaluation crisis and interest rate rises of black Wednesday.

[bickster]

So why join something that gives you less control over your economy, when in the future it stands a very good chance that the reasons being stated for not joining now, are likely to exist again.

I really don't understand the logic of just taking the best chance scenario and using that as an argument for joining when it crops up, when that situation isn't going to stay in place forever.

It's one of the five tests that Brown drew up, economic harmonisation. For the Euro to be worth adopting our economy has to be perfectly harmonised with the rest of Europe.

Essentially, is it right to join up at the first time our economy gets close to syncing with the rest of Europe, when there are no guarantees that it will stay that way, and past evidence shows that it won't?

Once we've joined the Euro, our economy is that of the Euro not Sterling so it can't go back out of sync once we've joined surely? Sure we as Britain would have less control over the Euro than we do over the Pound but that is one of the points of joining it in the first place, if people decide that its not for us, then so be it but thats kind of obvious if we were to join, it's part of the deal

Right now me personally I think its almost impossible for us to join both in an internal political stance and in an external economic POV too. But in an ideal world I think we should join but then again, in an ideal world, I'd be all for a United Europe

[snowychap]

Because this very idea that we'll join the Euro "when the time is right" ignores the fact that when the time is right, it's not going to stay like that forever. You have to look at how it's going to help or hinder us in future downswings as well, and if it's not right during one of them, then why would we join? You can't just join during a good time and hope the good times carry on forever.

I think you've completely misconstrued what people mean when they might say, "When the time is right."

I doubt that many (if any) of those people are saying it on the basis that it might be right to be in the Euro (in their opinion) for a day/a week/a month or any specified amount of time. What they appear to be saying is that they reckon that being in the Euro is better than not, overall, when they've weighed things up, &c. Not that it'll be a good idea to do it every other tuesday and thursday.

As Gringo suggests, the timing of acting upon what what one believes is 'the right option' can often be very important (it would be a rare occasion when it wasn't, I'd argue).

[tonyh29]

Tony Bliar and Labour lied, so Clegg must be a liar too? Thats some fairly big monumental leap you did there Tony.

the "leap" was more that politicians lie , always have done , always will do ..so no ,there is nothing monumental about it

[bickster]

Tony Bliar and Labour lied, so Clegg must be a liar too? Thats some fairly big monumental leap you did there Tony.

the "leap" was more that politicians lie , always have done , always will do ..so no ,there is nothing monumental about it

Well yeah but, taking that attitude renders this and any other topic pointless.

[markavfc40]

politicians lie , always have done , always will do

Cameron seems to have took it a step further though by no longer making the effort to lie preferring to not answer the questions put to him. I have to say I've seen some hollow politicians in my time but Cameron beats them all by a country mile. The fact some fools still fall for his bollocks still astonishes me but hey ho the truth will eventually out and sadly we'll all pay the **** price.

[bickster]

I can’t believe Brown quoted Eric Liddell. I fully expect a recreation of the opening of chariots of fire...

There is a commonality there, son of a Scottish Preacherman

[wiganvillain]

tonyh29 wrote:

politicians lie , always have done , always will do

Look, another Tony statement I can fully and wholeheartedly agree with.

Well said that man, even though it's paraphrasing Samuel Clemments (Mark Twain for the uninitiated)

[tonyh29]

Liberals FTW, no tax on my first 10k will do nicely

it is currently £7500 anyway so it's only going up by £2500 isn't it ?

and isn't the first set of income taxed at 20% .. which would make the saving £500 and not £700 ?

the approx cost that i've just read for this tax give away is £22bn ... just wondering how in the largest defecit of all time they are going to find this money ?

[blandy]

Thought it was tax neutral Tony. That's what some analyst bod said.

[PauloBarnesi]

son of a Scottish Preacherman

Is that a song by Dusty MacSpringfield?

[Gringo]

Liberals FTW, no tax on my first 10k will do nicely

it is currently £7500 anyway so it's only going up by £2500 isn't it ?

and isn't the first set of income taxed at 20% .. which would make the saving £500 and not £700 ?

personal tax allowance for 2010 is £6,475, so 20% of £3,525 is £705 per annum, or an extra £60 per month for the lowest paid.

the approx cost that i've just read for this tax give away is £22bn ... just wondering how in the largest defecit of all time they are going to find this money ?

By squeezing the rich till they squeak hopefully. Or raising the basic tax to 21% would probably cover it.