Bollitics: VT General Election Poll #6 - Leaders Debate 3

[kidlewis]

drat01: I completely agree, Thatcher destroyed ruthlessly what is the spine of the UK economy, it ability to make things, the point is it needed to be said, it needs to be looked at and it needs to be addressed, regardless of how much spin Cameron puts on it and how genuine Cameron is about that point the statement he made is bang on.

Fact is untill we start making things again in the UK i just can't see how we will ever get straight.

do you not think that eastern europe and other areas of the world would have taken heavy industry off us anyway?

it's not like Labour stopped Peugot taking 2,500 jobs out of Coventry in 2006.

not all the tories doing it seems

whilst you come back with "well maggie started it", perhaps Labour didn't really give a shit in the end. Quite clearly from the article above and what happened just down the road at Peugot in 2006.

they talk about well we got those Peugot employees back into work, well considering it took some of them 3 years to find a skilled job....not really.

[PauloBarnesi]

drat01: I completely agree, Thatcher destroyed ruthlessly what is the spine of the UK economy, it ability to make things, the point is it needed to be said, it needs to be looked at and it needs to be addressed, regardless of how much spin Cameron puts on it and how genuine Cameron is about that point the statement he made is bang on.

Fact is untill we start making things again in the UK i just can't see how we will ever get straight.

mmm; the Beeching cuts? under who? Proposed and written under a Conservative government. Labour opposed it in there manifesto and the election promises of 1964. And what happened next? Labour won. And closed the railways. Why don’t you go to Hawick and have a look at the town furthest from a railway in Britain. Collapsed industry. Collapsed everything. The loss of the Waverley route is a huge cause of this. And it was a Labour government who should hang its head in shame. As I ve said; events and politicians (and union leaders) of every hue are responsible. Thatcher is to blame in part, but only a simplification of the events would blame her alone.

[Jon]

The tories are not to be trusted on manufacturing.

The tories are not to be trusted. Full stop.

[Richard]

Or maybe we should dismiss people because of what school they went to.

[drat01]

quite obvious that his smile is completely fake. I mean he came out of Bigots house smiling as though he had just been snorting coke with her. he should look humble and remorseful.

spot on KL.

Shame Ian cannot even accept this point.

I don't care what he looks like, but to come out of that meeting in the manner he does was just so wrong and innappropriate.

it is not what people look like intrinsically. It is how they portray themsleves, and how they "come across".

Brown could not come across any worse if he tried.

why is it a shame that I cannot accept your, IMO wrong, point.

KL makes a frankly stupid comment about BIGOT and COKE, so he should com out dressed like the albino in the Da Vinci Code with barbed wire and wounds?

Maybe he was happy that he had cleared up that misunderstanding with that woman who had so badly worded her comments? You are making such a major point out of how he looks and how he smiles, its ludicrous.

I look forward to your comments condemning anyone else for the way that they look.

[kidlewis]

quite obvious that his smile is completely fake. I mean he came out of Bigots house smiling as though he had just been snorting coke with her. he should look humble and remorseful.

spot on KL.

Shame Ian cannot even accept this point.

I don't care what he looks like, but to come out of that meeting in the manner he does was just so wrong and innappropriate.

it is not what people look like intrinsically. It is how they portray themsleves, and how they "come across".

Brown could not come across any worse if he tried.

why is it a shame that I cannot accept your, IMO wrong, point.

KL makes a frankly stupid comment about BIGOT and COKE, so he should com out dressed like the albino in the Da Vinci Code with barbed wire and wounds?

Maybe he was happy that he had cleared up that misunderstanding with that woman who had so badly worded her comments? You are making such a major point out of how he looks and how he smiles, its ludicrous.

I look forward to your comments condemning anyone else for the way that they look.

If he misunderstood her then he is incredibly thick. She was clear in what she said. So Brown is a thicky or a liar.

shame you can't see the humor in my post about Gordon smiling like a gurning drug addict after coming out of her house.

[Jon]

I look forward to your comments condemning anyone else for the way that they look.

it is not about how they look Ian.

It is about how they come across.

I have voted Labour more than any other party.

I have never voted Tory.

This man has turned me right off the party (not the sole reason for me not voting Labour - it is more positive reasons for voting lib dem that has turned me to them)

I cannot criticise any of the other leaders for the way they come across, because they both come across so much better than Brown. It's quite simple.

Can you not accept that Brown does not come across well, and turns voters away from him as a result?

[Richard]

I find it interesting that the Tories get blamed for the state of the country today as if Labour hadn't been in power for 13 years or hadn't let the banks go on their way not regulated properly. Fascinating

Also interesting that in some quarters the equation is

Labour = all things good

anything else s bad apart from

Tories = evil

[Malachite]

The killing off of the manufacturing industry - I just wonder who did that?

I am sure you mean Thatcher. But lets be honest as a country our manufacturing industry has/had been **** for most of the 20Th century. You can blame a lot of people and events for that; wars, and the utter stupidity of all political parties.

There is a lot of reason why manufacturing failed in the UK none more so than a lack of investment and modernization, the ability for owners of small manufacturing to raise capital through banks, banks and government that never put in place the kind of advantages that our European neighbours have enjoyed for generations, being able to borrow to advance there business, Gordon Brown spoke of Regional development loans/grants to be made available to business, they have been about for the last 30 years or so, anybody on here tried to get one, because if they have they will know just how austere and how expensive they are. Compare that with our counterparts in France and Germany, I have friends in business who refuse to deal with British banks, they deal with Dutch and German banks because they understand the nature of lending to business, as for the Chinese its laughable, I know an engineer up in B'ham who is permanently employed by asset strippers dismantling heavy capital equipment and machinery, that's been bolted to the floor for the last 40years up in places like cheapside, from perfectly good business that went under for all kinds of reasons, mainly because of lack of funding and cash flow, now been crated and shipped out to China, he then goes out there to meet it at the other end under strict instruction to reassemble on new factory floors in exactly the same manufacturing process and layout as it was 2 months earlier in the UK......They then start making again ( in this case Taps and fittings) and sell the stuff to the UK for half the price because its o heavily government funded by the Chinese government. point I'm making is we can back our banks but we can never back the true wealth creators of the UK.

[drat01]

If he misunderstood her then he is incredibly thick. She was clear in what she said. So Brown is a thicky or a liar.

Yeah - as others have said even on VT - her words were not clear in motives and clarity

[Jon]

So Brown is a thicky or a liar.

column B mate, in that instance.

As we all know really, don't we.

But what else could he say really? He'd been caught with his trousers down.

[Jon]

If he misunderstood her then he is incredibly thick. She was clear in what she said. So Brown is a thicky or a liar.

Yeah - as others have said even on VT - her words were not clear in motives and clarity

absoluet 100% bollocks that, IMO Ian of course.

But what i would have expected from Labour's VT spin doctor.

[blandy]

...There is a lot of reason why manufacturing failed in the UK none more so than a lack of investment and modernization, the ability for owners of small manufacturing to raise capital through banks, banks and government that never put in place the kind of advantages that our European neighbours have enjoyed for generations, being able to borrow to advance there business, Gordon Brown spoke of Regional development loans/grants to be made available to business, they have been about for the last 30 years or so, anybody on here tried to get one, because if they have they will know just how austere and how expensive they are. Compare that with our counterparts in France and Germany, I have friends in business who refuse to deal with British banks, they deal with Dutch and German banks because they understand the nature of lending to business, as for the Chinese its laughable, I know an engineer up in B'ham who is permanently employed by asset strippers dismantling heavy capital equipment and machinery, that's been bolted to the floor for the last 40years up in places like cheapside, from perfectly good business that went under for all kinds of reasons, mainly because of lack of funding and cash flow, now been crated and shipped out to China, he then goes out there to meet it at the other end under strict instruction to reassemble on new factory floors in exactly the same manufacturing process and layout as it was 2 months earlier in the UK......They then start making again ( in this case Taps and fittings) and sell the stuff to the UK for half the price because its o heavily government funded by the Chinese government. point I'm making is we can back our banks but we can never back the true wealth creators of the UK.

Excellent post, Malachite. I wish some of the election parties would talk about this kind of thing, and how we need to change the way we do things.

[bickster]

Labour = Tories

Tories = evil

fixed

[Malachite]

...There is a lot of reason why manufacturing failed in the UK none more so than a lack of investment and modernization, the ability for owners of small manufacturing to raise capital through banks, banks and government that never put in place the kind of advantages that our European neighbours have enjoyed for generations, being able to borrow to advance there business, Gordon Brown spoke of Regional development loans/grants to be made available to business, they have been about for the last 30 years or so, anybody on here tried to get one, because if they have they will know just how austere and how expensive they are. Compare that with our counterparts in France and Germany, I have friends in business who refuse to deal with British banks, they deal with Dutch and German banks because they understand the nature of lending to business, as for the Chinese its laughable, I know an engineer up in B'ham who is permanently employed by asset strippers dismantling heavy capital equipment and machinery, that's been bolted to the floor for the last 40years up in places like cheapside, from perfectly good business that went under for all kinds of reasons, mainly because of lack of funding and cash flow, now been crated and shipped out to China, he then goes out there to meet it at the other end under strict instruction to reassemble on new factory floors in exactly the same manufacturing process and layout as it was 2 months earlier in the UK......They then start making again ( in this case Taps and fittings) and sell the stuff to the UK for half the price because its o heavily government funded by the Chinese government. point I'm making is we can back our banks but we can never back the true wealth creators of the UK.

Excellent post, Malachite. I wish some of the election parties would talk about this kind of thing, and how we need to change the way we do things.

blandy: Agree, we really do, the one thing the British worker is a world beater at and that's making things, we have real craft and skill, know how almost as a birthright, especially B'ham.

[Richard]

The killing off of the manufacturing industry - I just wonder who did that?

I am sure you mean Thatcher. But lets be honest as a country our manufacturing industry has/had been **** for most of the 20Th century. You can blame a lot of people and events for that; wars, and the utter stupidity of all political parties.

There is a lot of reason why manufacturing failed in the UK none more so than a lack of investment and modernization, the ability for owners of small manufacturing to raise capital through banks, banks and government that never put in place the kind of advantages that our European neighbours have enjoyed for generations, being able to borrow to advance there business, Gordon Brown spoke of Regional development loans/grants to be made available to business, they have been about for the last 30 years or so, anybody on here tried to get one, because if they have they will know just how austere and how expensive they are. Compare that with our counterparts in France and Germany, I have friends in business who refuse to deal with British banks, they deal with Dutch and German banks because they understand the nature of lending to business, as for the Chinese its laughable, I know an engineer up in B'ham who is permanently employed by asset strippers dismantling heavy capital equipment and machinery, that's been bolted to the floor for the last 40years up in places like cheapside, from perfectly good business that went under for all kinds of reasons, mainly because of lack of funding and cash flow, now been crated and shipped out to China, he then goes out there to meet it at the other end under strict instruction to reassemble on new factory floors in exactly the same manufacturing process and layout as it was 2 months earlier in the UK......They then start making again ( in this case Taps and fittings) and sell the stuff to the UK for half the price because its o heavily government funded by the Chinese government. point I'm making is we can back our banks but we can never back the true wealth creators of the UK.

As others have said good post that. On the China thing the really "interesting" point is that they are paying for most of that with the interest on the money they have lent us! Most of our debt is owned by China so not only are they into us for that but also for our supplies.

Some might say they didn't need weapons!

[LondonLax]

...There is a lot of reason why manufacturing failed in the UK none more so than a lack of investment and modernization, the ability for owners of small manufacturing to raise capital through banks, banks and government that never put in place the kind of advantages that our European neighbours have enjoyed for generations, being able to borrow to advance there business, Gordon Brown spoke of Regional development loans/grants to be made available to business, they have been about for the last 30 years or so, anybody on here tried to get one, because if they have they will know just how austere and how expensive they are. Compare that with our counterparts in France and Germany, I have friends in business who refuse to deal with British banks, they deal with Dutch and German banks because they understand the nature of lending to business, as for the Chinese its laughable, I know an engineer up in B'ham who is permanently employed by asset strippers dismantling heavy capital equipment and machinery, that's been bolted to the floor for the last 40years up in places like cheapside, from perfectly good business that went under for all kinds of reasons, mainly because of lack of funding and cash flow, now been crated and shipped out to China, he then goes out there to meet it at the other end under strict instruction to reassemble on new factory floors in exactly the same manufacturing process and layout as it was 2 months earlier in the UK......They then start making again ( in this case Taps and fittings) and sell the stuff to the UK for half the price because its o heavily government funded by the Chinese government. point I'm making is we can back our banks but we can never back the true wealth creators of the UK.

Excellent post, Malachite. I wish some of the election parties would talk about this kind of thing, and how we need to change the way we do things.

Whilst it is true that the manufacturing industry in the UK has gotten smaller over the last 50+ years I actually think the point gets over played if anything.

I was surprised to read recently that the manufacturing industry in the UK is actually still the 8th biggest in the world which is pretty big for such a small country and I was not expecting given the way people complain the UK no longer makes anything.

Big heavy industry has moved overseas to where costs are cheaper as expected but a lot of manufacturing bases still remain and have become more efficient and more niche.

[drat01]

If he misunderstood her then he is incredibly thick. She was clear in what she said. So Brown is a thicky or a liar.

Yeah - as others have said even on VT - her words were not clear in motives and clarity

absoluet 100% bollocks that, IMO Ian of course.

But what i would have expected from Labour's VT spin doctor.

100% Bollox eh?

Paul Barnes - Feel a little sorry for Brown to be honest. Every politician (and sports commentator) makes inappropriate comments from time to time. Only the unlucky few get caught, and for some it makes them even more popular

Chindie - Apparently she had a problem with Eastern European immigration, depending on what she said, the context etc etc, she could well have flown close to the wing of bigotry.

TheTrees - Not for referring to someone as a bigot, who might be anyway.

Chindie (again - Having read that transcript I feel somewhat sorry for him.

I also get the impression the woman..er.. isn't the sharpest. Like Drat I read that she appeared to be blaming immigration for claimants and Britain aparently going down the pan.

avfc89 - Yes, I agree she is ill-informed, but she isn't a bigot.

OBE - Personally, I think that she came across as a borderline bigot ('scuse pun) and I think if Brown had managed his error better, the discussion might focus on whether he was right or wrong about her.

b23avfc - To be fair, he wasn't wrong was he..

Jon :oops: - Yes, it was a gaffe. Yes, amny people will let off steam after confornting someone with whom they disagree. Yes, the lady had some "ill informed/ignorant" views on immigaration.

The actual transcript of the conversation

"GD: But there's too many people now who aren't vulnerable but they can claim and people who are vulnerable can't get claim, can't get it.

PM: But they shouldn't be doing that. There's no life on the dole for people any more. If you're unemployed you've got to go back to work. It's six months...

GD: You can't say anything about the immigrants because you're saying that you're... all these Eastern Europeans what are coming in, where are they flocking from? "

[tonyh29]

Yes, the lady had some "ill informed/ignorant" views on immigaration.

but she isn't alone in those views

"I'll still be voting for Labour – I think," says pensioner Anne Wheeler, hurrying home from the post office near the old Majestic and Cairo cotton mills, now part of the Ferranti engineering group. "But I've a lot of sympathy with that Mrs Duffy. She was only saying what plenty of us ordinary Labour voters think."

I also get the impression the woman..er.. isn't the sharpest

I knew it , Chindie is Gordon Brown ..

[drat01]

I knew it , you are Gordon Brown ..

That was Chindie that said that :-) - I will make sure your comments get seen by him :-)