Bollitics: VT General Election Poll #5 - Leaders Debate Two

[snowychap]

IVOR GABER

A welshman with a penchant for pleonasm?

[rendelc]

So , according to Mr Brown, anyone who is worried about immigration is a bigot. Really ?

[Demitri_C]

this is poor timing, right before the final live tv debate which i think will provide us with a clear winner...

that rag the sun is going to have a field day tomorrow

[markavfc40]

A lot of people will have sympathy for what she has said. A lot of core Labour support will. Brown has effectively called them all bigots

How has he?

[LondonLax]

The economy will fail to grow sufficiently if immigrants like Eastern Europeans continue to send money home. In 2007 alone they took over £1bn out of the economy.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23402160-polish-immigrants-take-1bn-out-of-the-uk-economy.do

There needs to be more restrictions placed the on the Labour market for immigrants. Jobs should firstly go to those people here, who want a job and need a job.

And how much do you recon English chavs travelling to Benidorm/Ibiza etc take out of the economy

The point is how much they make the economy, not the fraction they take abroad...

[maqroll]

It seems like if a regular, politically centrist person has voiced concerns about immigration (even EU immigration), then they run the risk of being branded a racist or bigot.

PC culture gone mad.

[OutByEaster?]

Personally, I think that she came across as a borderline bigot ('scuse pun) and I think if Brown had managed his error better, the discussion might focus on whether he was right or wrong about her.

As it is, he's got caught talking behind the scenes, said something contentious then made sure that the whole world knows about it by returning to the scene of the crime and making himself look a bit of a loser.

It shouldn't matter, it doesn't affect his policies, it doesn't affect the party he represents and it's an issue that should really only affect one voter.

Unfortunately for Gordon though the world isn't like that and I think he's most likely just lost the election.

Who says one voice can't make a difference!

[Reality]

The economy will fail to grow sufficiently if immigrants like Eastern Europeans continue to send money home. In 2007 alone they took over £1bn out of the economy.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23402160-polish-immigrants-take-1bn-out-of-the-uk-economy.do

There needs to be more restrictions placed the on the Labour market for immigrants. Jobs should firstly go to those people here, who want a job and need a job.

And how much do you recon English chavs travelling to Benidorm/Ibiza etc take out of the economy

The point is how much they make the economy, not the fraction they take abroad...

I posted an article on the previous page relating to a Parliamentary party report on the benefits of immigration, which appear to be little the report concludes.

[snowychap]

I posted an article on the previous page relating to a Parliamentary party report on the benefits of immigration, which appear to be little the report concludes.

Why is the parliamentary report definitive? You said there were conflicting reports.

On other matters, I had missed, in all of the Brown kerfuffle, that Spain's credit rating had been downgraded by S&P.

From this page on the Grauniad website:

S&P's own report explains that it cut Spain's rating because it believes the country's "real GDP growth" will average just 0.7% over the next six years.

...

S&P said it had decided to downgrade Spain's credit rating by one notch because it believes its economy will suffer "a more protracted period of sluggish growth than previously expected."

In another signal that it is the ratings agency and the bond markets who are calling the shots, S&P said it might revise Spain's outlook to Stable if its government "meets or exceeds fiscal objectives in 2010 and 2011".

[PauloBarnesi]

Personally, I think that she came across as a borderline bigot ('scuse pun) and I think if Brown had managed his error better, the discussion might focus on whether he was right or wrong about her.

As it is, he's got caught talking behind the scenes, said something contentious then made sure that the whole world knows about it by returning to the scene of the crime and making himself look a bit of a loser.

It shouldn't matter, it doesn't affect his policies, it doesn't affect the party he represents and it's an issue that should really only affect one voter.

Unfortunately for Gordon though the world isn't like that and I think he's most likely just lost the election.

Who says one voice can't make a difference!

The recent book by Andrew Rawnsley detailed quite alot by Gordon Brown. It was hearsay, which whilst insiders might know to be true, to the general public was perhaps less believable. However this has become an illustration of his behaviour. As the Guardian noted; Brown in general never views himself to be to blame, and he comes across this way. His apology seems forced (IMO); he’s been told to do so.

When Prescott punched someone, Blair said something along the lines; “John being John”. Blair and Cherie are sitting somewhere saying “Gordon being Gordon”

[Reality]

Why is the parliamentary report definitive? You said there were conflicting reports.

Where did I say it was definitive. I did say there were conflicting reports on the matter. We have people who say it benefits and those who say it doesn't.

The Parliamentary report aren't the only ones that have raised issues over immigration.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6226217.stm

I think it we look at what the BBC editor's economic spokesman says on the matter...it shows how much of a mess immigration is in this country. People blindly accept that they benefit the country..that they add something to it. The whole system is tangled up, it would be absolutely impossible to strip through it and try and work out what benefits have been seen where, and how.

[snowychap]

Where did I say it was definitive.

In the same post where you directed us to the parliamentary report, you told us The government have mislead [sic] people on immigration for quite sometime, stating that it helps the economy.

It would suggest that you took the parliamentary report which supports your viewpoint as, if not definitive, at least correct.

The Parliamentary report aren't the only ones that have raised issues over immigration.

Wow, migrationwatch raise issue over immigration shocker.

BTW, Green says, "We find they certainly do add to production, but they also add in virtually the same proportion to population."

When one of the most popular measures of a country's economy is its GDP (and not GDP per capita), it might appear that any addition to production is a good thing.

...it would be absolutely impossible to strip through it and try and work out what benefits have been seen where, and how.

Well, that would rather leave us at an impasse, then.

If it is absolutely impossible to do then there is no right or wrong - it will all come down to faith in one's own opinion.

A quick google would suggest that there are a few academic studies (and essays drawing on various studies) which suggest that immigration (whilst not always easy to cope with) is of benefit.

[JulieB]

I think what was more upsetting for Mrs Duffy is not just being referred to "some bigotted woman", but the way Gordon Brown just dismissed her viewpoints, as though the woman should never have been allowed to ask him questions that hadn't been "smoothed" through the party PR brigade.

Brown was more bothered about his image..... "that was a (PR) disaster" he said in the car prior to the "bigotted woman" remark....rather than.. "Did I answer that woman's questions?"... "How did I make her feel?".

OK he's clearly not a people person but at least he should try to listen to the genuine concerns of a typical normal working class citizen, surely?

He is Prime Minister after all.

[b23avfc]

To be fair, he wasn't wrong was he..

[Awol]

Mass immigration was a Labour social engineering project intended to irreversably change the ethinc make up of the UK. It was done for ideological reasons and with zero mandate from the electorate to carry it out.

Oct 2009, BBC

In his article Mr Neather [Former Downing Street aide] said the "major shift" in immigration policy had come after the publication of a policy paper from the Performance and Innovation Unit, a Downing Street think-tank.

The published version promoted the labour market case for immigration, but Mr Neather said: "Earlier [unpublished] drafts I saw also included a driving political purpose: that mass immigration was the way that the government was going to make the UK truly multicultural.

"I remember coming away from some discussions with the clear sense that the policy was intended - even if this wasn't its main purpose - to rub the right's nose in diversity and render their arguments out of date."

The "deliberate policy" had lasted from late 2000 until "at least February last year", when the new points-based immigration system was introduced, he added.

Of course they deny it but then Brown also denied cutting defence spending while we were at war, despite that demonstrably being a lie.

Of course if you dare to raise this issue you are labelled a "bigot". What a bunch of arse.

[PompeyVillan]

I think the only real crime in this debacle is that he got caught. We all make comments like that on occasion, especially when we're frustrated. I'm not likely to vote Labour anyway, but this hasn't dented my opinion of Brown, the man, at all.

If he'd called her a word removed- I'd be voting Labour.

[maqroll]

To be fair, he wasn't wrong was he..

About the "disaster", no.

[thetrees]

Of course if you dare to raise this issue you are labelled a "bigot". What a bunch of arse.

You are only a 'bigot' if you appear to be a Labour voter or potential Labour voter.

If you appear to be a Tory voter or potential Tory voter then you are a 'racist'

[drat01]

Of course if you dare to raise this issue you are labelled a "bigot". What a bunch of arse.

Of course you are Jon - ridiculous comment

[rendelc]

Of course if you dare to raise this issue you are labelled a "bigot". What a bunch of arse.

Of course you are Jon - ridiculous comment

Are you Gordon Brown in disguise ?