Bollitics: VT General Election Poll #5 - Leaders Debate Two

[drat01]

:-) - are you Max Clifford? - Have you been wearing a hat? Do you have a moustache? ....... sorry I thought we were playing Guess Who.

It seems that the rumour is Murdoch has tonight paid her 50K for her "story" - interesting to see how that pans out.

[Awol]

Of course if you dare to raise this issue you are labelled a "bigot". What a bunch of arse.

Of course you are Jon - ridiculous comment

Sorry, that should have have read racist/homophobe/bigot/Nazi/UKIP voter. *nods to The Trees*.

Dem was being slated a few pages back by some uber lefty for daring to say he agreed with current government policy on immigration and you yourself were all over this woman like a cheap suit to protect the good name of the Dear Leader.

The 'problem' with sensibly discussing immigration is the disconnect between public and politicians. Most politicians have liberal attitudes towards it because they know "one" - often employing them - and "they" are quite charming.

The same disconnect is reflected in other services too, they don't believe there is too much crime because inside their close protection cordon there isn't. Education, health...you name it, their perception and experience is totally different from Mrs immigrant baiter of Rochdale.

I'm not criminalising or knocking immigrants at all but the fact is people's views of immigration vary depending on their experience of it. To dismiss those concerns (even if they are broadly misplaced) is the height of arrogance. The killer for me is not what he said but his reaction to the situation: First blame his aide, then blame the old bird, then blame the broadcaster. The theme, as ever, is his failure to take responsibility. Yet people will be voting for this clearing in the woods to remain as PM. It's staggering.

[drat01]

Of course if you dare to raise this issue you are labelled a "bigot". What a bunch of arse.

You are only a 'bigot' if you appear to be a Labour voter or potential Labour voter.

If you appear to be a Tory voter or potential Tory voter then you are a 'racist'

I'd be interested to see your reasoning though mate. It seems that now the facts of this incident are being totally ignored to prove some point.

For the sake of clarity can you be a racist and not a bigot?

If your views appear to have you saying that East European immigrants are claiming benefits at the expense of people who really deserve them, when this is not the case, how would you describe that person?

[LondonLax]

Mass immigration was a Labour social engineering project intended to irreversably change the ethinc make up of the UK. It was done for ideological reasons and with zero mandate from the electorate to carry it out.

Oct 2009, BBC

In his article Mr Neather [Former Downing Street aide] said the "major shift" in immigration policy had come after the publication of a policy paper from the Performance and Innovation Unit, a Downing Street think-tank.

The published version promoted the labour market case for immigration, but Mr Neather said: "Earlier [unpublished] drafts I saw also included a driving political purpose: that mass immigration was the way that the government was going to make the UK truly multicultural.

"I remember coming away from some discussions with the clear sense that the policy was intended - even if this wasn't its main purpose - to rub the right's nose in diversity and render their arguments out of date."

The "deliberate policy" had lasted from late 2000 until "at least February last year", when the new points-based immigration system was introduced, he added.

Of course they deny it but then Brown also denied cutting defence spending while we were at war, despite that demonstrably being a lie.

Of course if you dare to raise this issue you are labelled a "bigot". What a bunch of arse.

I think the more logical and obvious reason was to address the threat of an aging population by bringing in larger numbers of working age people from around the world.

It's not like they had a real choice in the matter because most migrants were from the EU and as such can not be stopped from comming to work in the UK.

The notion of becoming more multicutral was probably just an idealogical bonus to the whole thing.

[snowychap]

sorry I thought we were playing Guess Who

In our household, we play Qui est-ce?

Ignore me, just trying to lighten the mood.

[drat01]

Dem was being slated a few pages back by some uber lefty for daring to say he agreed with current government policy on immigration and you yourself were all over this woman like a cheap suit to protect the good name of the Dear Leader.

more rubbish I am afraid Jon - in fact downright lies. Firstly Dem's run in with whoever it was (apologies to the poster) was I believe over a comment re Language. Secondly and a big porky, I was not "all over this woman" to support Brown, based on what I heard / saw from her comments, I like others it seems (even on this thread - wow) took her badly worded comments as those of someone showing the traits of a bigot. The fact that after numerous cups of tea it seems that she didn't explain it too well, goes a long way. I am happy to maintain the view though that based on the comments that the term bigot seemed very apt.

The 'problem' with sensibly discussing immigration is the disconnect between public and politicians. Most politicians have liberal attitudes towards it because they know "one" - often employing them - and "they" are quite charming.

No the problem is not just that - the problem is when truth becomes based on misrepresentation - e.g. Polish immigrants taking benefits that were due to others - etc. I would agree though that politicians should be open and honest. Maybe Boris was being truthful when he made those comments about foreigners etc

The same disconnect is reflected in other services too, they don't believe there is too much crime because inside their close protection cordon there isn't. Education, health...you name it, their perception and experience is totally different from Mrs immigrant baiter of Rochdale.

It depends Jon if you buy this shit about broken Britain

I'm not criminalising or knocking immigrants at all but the fact is people's views of immigration vary depending on their experience of it. To dismiss those concerns (even if they are broadly misplaced) is the height of arrogance. The killer for me is not what he said but his reaction to the situation: First blame his aide, then blame the old bird, then blame the broadcaster. The theme, as ever, is his failure to take responsibility. Yet people will be voting for this clearing in the woods to remain as PM. It's staggering.

I'm pleased you are not "criminalising" immigrants - that would be disgraceful.

As for blame - Brown accepted blame - the mike should not have been on, Sky were more than happy to release a private conversation within minutes. As with all election things there is a major stage managed element, do you think that Wharburtons bread just happened to be behind Dave the other day (especially when he received a tasty cheque a few days later), and this woman's questions certainly gave the impression of being that of a bigot based on how and what she said. I bet Clegg, Cameron and of them would be tearing into whichever of their aides allow for people like that to get near them. It isn't right before you get on that high horse but the charade that is this election means that is about image more and more.

[thetrees]

Of course if you dare to raise this issue you are labelled a "bigot". What a bunch of arse.

You are only a 'bigot' if you appear to be a Labour voter or potential Labour voter.

If you appear to be a Tory voter or potential Tory voter then you are a 'racist'

I'd be interested to see your reasoning though mate. It seems that now the facts of this incident are being totally ignored to prove some point.

For the sake of clarity can you be a racist and not a bigot?

If your views appear to have you saying that East European immigrants are claiming benefits at the expense of people who really deserve them, when this is not the case, how would you describe that person?

Sorry, i should have stuck a wink there.

I was defining the difference between 'Labour people' and ' tory people' who hold the same opinion.

Personally i don't know an eastern European person on benefits. There are probably some, but my impression of eastern Europeans is that they are here to work and earn money, as have been the waves of 'positive' immigration that has hit the UK, such as (but not excluding all others) the Afro-Caribbean wave in the 50's and 60's, the east African Asian refugees in the 70's and more recently the displaced people of Montserrat.

My concern, and I think the concern of many, are the waves of people who walk through the middle East and Europe to get here, because they know that they will be handed money and accommodation, regardless of whether there is work to be found.

On top of that I still fail to understand how people who commit what is recognised as one of the most heinous of international crimes, hijacking an aircraft, get leave to stay in the UK, with benefits.

Immigration is a problem and, if as Gordon Brown intimates, as many are leaving as arriving, then I would suggest that we have a problem with the balance of our society as a result of migration as a whole.

[Reality]

Why do the government give out free houses to teenage mothers? It is an absolute disgrace. There are hard working families who have been on housing lists for months, if not years and they are immediately pushed to the back.

I've just heard about someone in my town who has been going on about how she can't wait to get her free house..yes she is 17 and is pregnant. Seems as if she is looking forward to her house more than her child.

This country well and truly has went to the pits.

[bickster]

Brown says Tories will remove free TV Licence for...........

[privateer]

Being slightly removed from it this year, I'm enjoying this election campaign a lot. The only election over here at the moment is "celebrity" chef (and arsehole) Kevin Woodford trying to get himself elected in the Douglas by election.

Ach! Did you have to? I'd forgotten that word removed even existed and you've just reminded me he does and made me recall how much I loathe the obnoxious little ****!

[snowychap]

This country well and truly has went to the pits.

Not in large numbers for quite a while.

[snowychap]

Why do the government give out free houses to teenage mothers? It is an absolute disgrace. There are hard working families who have been on housing lists for months, if not years and they are immediately pushed to the back.

Perhaps our stock of social housing could have been kept at a decent level?

[Awol]

Dem was being slated a few pages back by some uber lefty for daring to say he agreed with current government policy on immigration and you yourself were all over this woman like a cheap suit to protect the good name of the Dear Leader.

more rubbish I am afraid Jon - in fact downright lies. Firstly Dem's run in with whoever it was (apologies to the poster) was I believe over a comment re Language.

No, not lies, Mr law degree was very insitent that Dem was being a racist and insinuating that the authorities would be on to him if he was overheard.. It was pointed out that what Dem was saying was actually in line with offical policy and finally he **** off.

Secondly and a big porky, I was not "all over this woman" to support Brown, based on what I heard / saw from her comments, I like others it seems (even on this thread - wow) took her badly worded comments as those of someone showing the traits of a bigot.

Yep, the VT thought police were on full alert but you seemed to be attacking her before actually hearing what she'd even said to Macavity.

The fact that after numerous cups of tea it seems that she didn't explain it too well, goes a long way. I am happy to maintain the view though that based on the comments that the term bigot seemed very apt.

What a load of transparent spin that was (from Labour) "Ooh ooh, it was all a misunderstanding..." Bollox.

No the problem is not just that - the problem is when truth becomes based on misrepresentation - e.g. Polish immigrants taking benefits that were due to others - etc. I would agree though that politicians should be open and honest.

I've no dramas with the hard working Polish community at all but it's undeniable that a massive criminal element has moved into the UK from South East Europe. We've also let in stacks of people from outside the EU who frankly contribute naff all and take an awful lot. I know you call it a little Enfglander attitude but I believe that charity begins at home. I'm not keen on half the third world setting up camp in the UK on the taxpayer when we have our own people living under bridges and on benches. Yes some of the rest of the world is shit but it's not our responsibility to house, clothe and feed them.

As for blame - Brown accepted blame - the mike should not have been on, Sky were more than happy to release a private conversation within minutes.

The phrase he kept using on Jermey Vine was "IF I said those things"... hardly a hands up guv moment. Just face it, the man is an utter cretin of the first water, possibly the worst PM there has ever been.

[bickster]

Why do the government give out free houses to teenage mothers? It is an absolute disgrace. There are hard working families who have been on housing lists for months, if not years and they are immediately pushed to the back.

Perhaps our stock of social housing could have been kept at a decent level?

or, alternatively, just maybe, IT ISN'T TRUE

But snowys right, if the **** witch hadn't sold all the council houses off in the first place.....

[Reality]

Why do the government give out free houses to teenage mothers? It is an absolute disgrace. There are hard working families who have been on housing lists for months, if not years and they are immediately pushed to the back.

Perhaps our stock of social housing could have been kept at a decent level?

or, alternatively, just maybe, IT ISN'T TRUE

But snowys right, if the **** witch hadn't sold all the council houses off in the first place.....

You don't think its true that teenage mothers are bumped ahead on the housing list?

And yes, I do agree, Thatcher should never have sold housing off.

[Awol]

Why do the government give out free houses to teenage mothers? It is an absolute disgrace. There are hard working families who have been on housing lists for months, if not years and they are immediately pushed to the back.

Perhaps our stock of social housing could have been kept at a decent level?

or, alternatively, just maybe, IT ISN'T TRUE

But snowys right, if the **** witch hadn't sold all the council houses off in the first place.....

Total number of local authority homes built in the ten years from 1998 to 2007 under T. Blair, 3,590

Total number of local authority homes built in the ten years from 1980 to 1989 under M. Thatcher, 392,090

But it's all Thatcher's fault....

[drat01]

No, not lies, Mr law degree was very insitent that Dem was being a racist and insinuating that the authorities would be on to him if he was overheard.. It was pointed out that what Dem was saying was actually in line with offical policy and finally he **** off.

Sorry Jon - I was talking about your statements about me there.

Yep, the VT thought police were on full alert but you seemed to be attacking her before actually hearing what she'd even said to Macavity.

Sorry but that is scandalous what you are saying. Are you saying I did not hear or see it - that is a big statement you are making one that you need to back up with a fact (and I know you can't)

What a load of transparent spin that was (from Labour) "Ooh ooh, it was all a misunderstanding..." Bollox.

If you say so

Sorry but the rest of your post is not worth any sort of comment

Obvious again that you and I are not going to agree

[snowychap]

Total number of local authority homes built in the ten years from 1998 to 2007 under T. Blair, 3,590

Total number of local authority homes built in the ten years from 1980 to 1989 under M. Thatcher, 392,090

But it's all Thatcher's fault....

:?

How many homes were taken out of local authority stock in those periods?

The equation is surely homes out minus homes in?

[peterms]

Mass immigration was a Labour social engineering project intended to irreversably change the ethinc make up of the UK. It was done for ideological reasons and with zero mandate from the electorate to carry it out.

Oct 2009, BBC

In his article Mr Neather [Former Downing Street aide] said the "major shift" in immigration policy had come after the publication of a policy paper from the Performance and Innovation Unit, a Downing Street think-tank.

The published version promoted the labour market case for immigration, but Mr Neather said: "Earlier [unpublished] drafts I saw also included a driving political purpose: that mass immigration was the way that the government was going to make the UK truly multicultural.

"I remember coming away from some discussions with the clear sense that the policy was intended - even if this wasn't its main purpose - to rub the right's nose in diversity and render their arguments out of date."

The "deliberate policy" had lasted from late 2000 until "at least February last year", when the new points-based immigration system was introduced, he added.

Of course they deny it but then Brown also denied cutting defence spending while we were at war, despite that demonstrably being a lie.

Of course if you dare to raise this issue you are labelled a "bigot". What a bunch of arse.

The definitive shift in UK immigration policy took place in the post-war period. For pretty obvious reasons, we were short of labour, and encouraged people to immigrate.

This policy was still active under the Tory government, 1959-64. In fact, the Ministry of Health sent out people to the West Indies, to encourage immigration in order to fill empty jobs as nurses, porters and so on. Minster of Health at the time? Wasn't that Enoch Powell?

No serious person labels anyone discussing immigration as racist per se. However, it remains the case that an awful lot of people expressing concern about immigration are in fact racists. Sorry if that sounds "PC", whatever that idle term is now meant to connote.

[Awol]

No, not lies, Mr law degree was very insitent that Dem was being a racist and insinuating that the authorities would be on to him if he was overheard.. It was pointed out that what Dem was saying was actually in line with offical policy and finally he **** off.

Sorry Jon - I was talking about your statements about me there.

Yep, the VT thought police were on full alert but you seemed to be attacking her before actually hearing what she'd even said to Macavity.

Sorry but that is scandalous what you are saying. Are you saying I did not hear or see it - that is a big statement you are making one that you need to back up with a fact (and I know you can't)

Scandalous? I said 'seemed' so just calm down, I didn't go all ape shit when you were insinuating that UKIP voters were bigots a few pages ago -or is it only scandal when the slur is directed towards you?

Back to something slightly more important, as Darren pointed out the Spanish have now joined Portugal in having their credit rating down graded on the back of the news from Greece. Are you still so confident now that all will be fine in Euro land? The markets don't seem so convinced..