Bollitics: VT General Election Poll #5 - Leaders Debate Two

[bickster]

Why do the government give out free houses to teenage mothers? It is an absolute disgrace. There are hard working families who have been on housing lists for months, if not years and they are immediately pushed to the back.

Perhaps our stock of social housing could have been kept at a decent level?

or, alternatively, just maybe, IT ISN'T TRUE

But snowys right, if the **** witch hadn't sold all the council houses off in the first place.....

Total number of local authority homes built in the ten years from 1998 to 2007 under T. Blair, 3,590

Total number of local authority homes built in the ten years from 1980 to 1989 under M. Thatcher, 392,090

But it's all Thatcher's fault....

Did I say it was all Thatcher's Fault? Sure her disciple Bliar can get a small amount of the blame for not replacing the stock that the witch and Major sold off but the Witch must take most of the shit here.

Also how many of those houses built under Thatcher were built BEFORE she introduced the right to buy and how many after?

[snowychap]

Back to something slightly more important, as Darren pointed out the Spanish have now joined Portugal in having their credit rating down graded on the back of the news from Greece. Are you still so confident now that all will be fine in Euro land?

Glad someone reads my posts.

Tony, take note. :winkold:

I'm interested in how Ireland are managing to avoid getting dragged in to it all. From some of the things I've read, Ireland were being painted as incredibly susceptible to this panic (more than Spain and Portugal). Perhaps what I was reading was nonsense. Perhaps it has more to do with levels of unemployment which I gather are a real problem in Spain.

I remember Portillo remarking on This Week at the end of last year or early this year that he wouldn't be surprised if there were a big market 'issue' before the election. I wonder whether this might be it.

Anyone have any ideas why sterling dropped against the Euro today? Is it to do with the relative sterling rally in the last couple of weeks? Otherwise it seems a little bizarre when the Eurozone is the one with the issues (unless perhaps it has something to do with the apparent strengthening of Germany's economic position within europe).

[bickster]

You don't think its true that teenage mothers are bumped ahead on the housing list?

I'm amazed you think its wrong to be honest. Most working familys have less need of social housing tbh. They are capable of living in the private sector much more easily. Social housing is about need not want.

Would you have babies living in cardboard boxes under the arches?

I think you'll find that most teenage mothers tend to live at home with their mothers in the first place.

But try and think about it as giving a new life, a small chance in life, a roof over its head, after all its not to blame for anything is it?

[peterms]

Total number of local authority homes built in the ten years from 1998 to 2007 under T. Blair, 3,590

Total number of local authority homes built in the ten years from 1980 to 1989 under M. Thatcher, 392,090

But it's all Thatcher's fault....

:?

How many homes were taken out of local authority stock in those periods?

The equation is surely homes out minus homes in?

To understand what was happening in that period, you have to have some knowledge of local authority finance and housing policy. The simple figures lead to the big misunderstanding which Jon displays.

For example, the policy changes the Tories made choked off council housebuilding, but this didn't really start to bite until the mid-80s. If you check out tables of local authority house completions year by year, you will see a massive change from the early 80s to the late 80s. The reason for the low completions under Blair is that the policy remained in force - and the tiny numbers show how effective it was at stopping councils building.

Another factor is that grant was redirected from councils to housing associations. But they had to borrow to make up the grant, meaning loans from the City, paid for by rents, largely subsidised from housing benefit - so tax income was directed towards making interest payments to city firms. Nice business for Thatch's mates, and of course the growing housing crisis meant a revival of the largely crappy private rented sector, and a crisis in homelessness, meaning exorbitant fees paid to slum landlords, another of her constituencies of support. Taxes redirected into astonishing profits for slum landlords keeping people in dangerous conditions.

And of course council house sales drove the imbalance in supply and demand which drove this mad equation.

Was it all Thatcher's fault? Possibly not. Maybe there were a few local factors at work. But as a quick overview, was the housing crisis of the 80s and 90s, and the countless tales of human misery which lie behind the figures, driven by Thatcher's and the Tories' efforts to redirect public money into the pockets of themselves and their mates? Yes, without question.

[jonno_2004]

Just seen the whole thing on ITN - hilarious.

[snowychap]

Taxes redirected into astonishing profits for slum landlords keeping people in dangerous conditions.

Now it might only be anecdotal but I can attest to that still occurring and to my local authority (though I doubt it is unique) assisting in this by failing to enforce the legislation which is the responsibility of the district council.

**** bastards.

Apologies for the rudeness but it has helped to relieve a little frustration.

[Reality]

You don't think its true that teenage mothers are bumped ahead on the housing list?

I'm amazed you think its wrong to be honest. Most working familys have less need of social housing tbh. They are capable of living in the private sector much more easily. Social housing is about need not want.

Would you have babies living in cardboard boxes under the arches?

I think you'll find that most teenage mothers tend to live at home with their mothers in the first place.

But try and think about it as giving a new life, a small chance in life, a roof over its head, after all its not to blame for anything is it?

I have no problem with people getting houses when they genuinely need them.

And no, not all working families can afford to live in the private sector. Some live in shitholes paying the council rent of up to £50 a week, until a better house comes along. How can they have a fair chance when they are constantly being pushed back?

I know this is only one example, online, but you can be rest assured that this happens across the UK. Maybe not in every case, but in a lot of cases.

http://www.babyandbump.com/teen-pregnancy/318423-council-housing-s.html

"Is it ok to lie and say my parents want me out of the house"? What?

That is what I am talking about. People lying to get free houses. They know fine rightly if their parents don't want them there then the housing executive deems to be "homeless" and a priority, but she clearly isn't a priority. Absolutely ridiculous.

[Awol]

Back to something slightly more important, as Darren pointed out the Spanish have now joined Portugal in having their credit rating down graded on the back of the news from Greece. Are you still so confident now that all will be fine in Euro land?

Glad someone reads my posts.

Tony, take note. :winkold:

I'm interested in how Ireland are managing to avoid getting dragged in to it all. From some of the things I've read, Ireland were being painted as incredibly susceptible to this panic (more than Spain and Portugal). Perhaps what I was reading was nonsense.

Ireland manned up and swallowed a pretty grim austerity package of public spending cuts. The markets could see that their government was serious about getting a grip of their problem and consequently they have maintained their credibility. The PIGS have not.

Anyone have any ideas why sterling dropped against the Euro today? Is it to do with the relative sterling rally in the last couple of weeks?

Didn't realise it had, any bad figures out from our side today?

[snowychap]

And no, not all working families can afford to live in the private sector. Some live in shitholes paying the council rent of up to £50 a week, until a better house comes along. How can they have a fair chance when they are constantly being pushed back?

What on earth are you on about?

[Reality]

I think it is quite clear what I mean.

[snowychap]

Ireland manned up and swallowed a pretty grim austerity package of public spending cuts. The markets could see that their government was serious about getting a grip of their problem and consequently they have maintained their credibility. The PIGS have not.

Though wasn't the grimness of the Irish austerity in relation to their relatively more generous welfare and public spending provisions?

At least that's what CVB told us (that they were spending much more than anyone else).

I thought their dole payment went from 200 euro per week down to 100 euro per week? I may have got that wrong.

Anyone have any ideas why sterling dropped against the Euro today? Is it to do with the relative sterling rally in the last couple of weeks?

Didn't realise it had, any bad figures out from our side today?

Not that I could see - though they may have been hidden by the Brown faux-pas and the Greece/Spain/S&P issue.

I just thought that, as sterling seemed to have picked up in the last week or two against both the dollar and euro, it might just have been the product of a bit of speculation. But I was concerned, like you, that there was something more hearty which was the reason (especially considering the eurozone problems).

[LondonLax]

You don't think its true that teenage mothers are bumped ahead on the housing list?

I'm amazed you think its wrong to be honest. Most working familys have less need of social housing tbh. They are capable of living in the private sector much more easily. Social housing is about need not want.

Would you have babies living in cardboard boxes under the arches?

I think you'll find that most teenage mothers tend to live at home with their mothers in the first place.

But try and think about it as giving a new life, a small chance in life, a roof over its head, after all its not to blame for anything is it?

I have no problem with people getting houses when they genuinely need them.

And no, not all working families can afford to live in the private sector. Some live in shitholes paying the council rent of up to £50 a week, until a better house comes along. How can they have a fair chance when they are constantly being pushed back?

I know this is only one example, online, but you can be rest assured that this happens across the UK. Maybe not in every case, but in a lot of cases.

http://www.babyandbump.com/teen-pregnancy/318423-council-housing-s.html

"Is it ok to lie and say my parents want me out of the house"? What?

That is what I am talking about. People lying to get free houses. They know fine rightly if their parents don't want them there then the housing executive deems to be "homeless" and a priority, but she clearly isn't a priority. Absolutely ridiculous.

How often do you think that actually happens though? Yes it sucks when people commit fraud to rip off the state but it really would be a small number in the greater scheme of things.

It is not worth dismantling the whole system for the honest people because of the misdeeds of the minority. The phrase "throwing the baby out with the bath water" seems appropreate.

[snowychap]

I think it is quite clear what I mean.

Not in the slightest.

[Reality]

I think it is quite clear what I mean.

Not in the slightest.

Ok, what do you not understand about it?

[bickster]

You don't think its true that teenage mothers are bumped ahead on the housing list?

I'm amazed you think its wrong to be honest. Most working familys have less need of social housing tbh. They are capable of living in the private sector much more easily. Social housing is about need not want.

Would you have babies living in cardboard boxes under the arches?

I think you'll find that most teenage mothers tend to live at home with their mothers in the first place.

But try and think about it as giving a new life, a small chance in life, a roof over its head, after all its not to blame for anything is it?

I have no problem with people getting houses when they genuinely need them.

And no, not all working families can afford to live in the private sector. Some live in shitholes paying the council rent of up to £50 a week, until a better house comes along. How can they have a fair chance when they are constantly being pushed back?

I know this is only one example, online, but you can be rest assured that this happens across the UK. Maybe not in every case, but in a lot of cases.

http://www.babyandbump.com/teen-pregnancy/318423-council-housing-s.html

"Is it ok to lie and say my parents want me out of the house"? What?

That is what I am talking about. People lying to get free houses. They know fine rightly if their parents don't want them there then the housing executive deems to be "homeless" and a priority, but she clearly isn't a priority. Absolutely ridiculous.

So it's nothing to do with her being a teenage mother really, it's to do with her lying about her circumstances

Why can I rest assured that this happens across the UK? how can you be sure of it? Why does it even bother you?

Someone with a young baby and no means of income will always be ahead of a "working family" by definition. One is actually more needy than the other. One has an income, the other doesn't. It's nothing to do with "being bumped up" its to do with being more in need. Would you have the innocent baby living with no roof over its head because someone who has a job thinks they deserve it more? Is it the baby's fault?

[leviramsey]

A quick google would suggest that there are a few academic studies (and essays drawing on various studies) which suggest that immigration (whilst not always easy to cope with) is of benefit.

Indeed, immigration is basically the only reason that the UK (and the USA) may well avoid the fate of Greece (and Japan and Spain).

[Reality]

It is about people fiddling the system. You see it everywhere, dishonesty and people taking everyone else for mugs.

I have a problem with people lying on forms to get social housing, when they could live with their parents, and that house could have went to someone else.

[snowychap]

Ok, what do you not understand about it?

What you are getting at regarding council accomodation offered to people (especially versus the private accomodation on offer to people)?

[Ads]

I find this all very interesting with regards to the Eurozone. Currently we have Greece who are in desperate need of a several billion Euro injection into their economy, with their deficit spiralling and the cost of borrowing going the same way. Yet we have the Germans sitting on their hands and unwilling to act due to a local election coming up in early May and public opinion being 85% against an economic bailout for their single currency partners, while other countries appear to be suffering from a domino effect as mentioned above.

It doesn't bode well.

[Reality]

What you are getting at regarding council accomodation offered to people (especially versus the private accomodation on offer to people)?

I was referring to bickster when he said most working families are more capable of living in the private sector. I was saying that many cannot, particularly here in Northern Ireland, and many working families still have to rely on social accomodation from the Housing Executive, who they pay rent to.

I also meant that much of the social housing provided by the Housing Executive is poor, which is why I called places like such shitholes. They are very often in poor, run-down areas, and they are still charged rent such as £50. And because so many people are on these lists, they have to wait years to even have a chance of getting a house that they prefer.

Is that clear enough?