Lerner's Driver Posted August 17, 2023 Share Posted August 17, 2023 9 minutes ago, lexicon said: There are. Just go look in the respective threads ffs. No, I will take your word for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted August 17, 2023 Share Posted August 17, 2023 1 hour ago, VillanousOne said: Opinions are fine, we all over react and sometimes go to far, it's human nature Sweeping generalisations, presenting opinions as facts also But if someone vents and spits negativity without much balance, consideration/facts/proof it will get questioned, reactionary bile or endless repetitive criticism of the same player over and over will always just read like some weird agenda, like someone who voted Trump or Brexit and now has to go all in and never wheel back without damaging their fragile ego. No one is beyond criticism, but I don't feel we have any players who don't care, who don't try or give their best, we don't have bad apples in this squad that I feel need to be called out, even if we have players whose form and ability can be rightly questioned People seem to wildy differ in how they approach different players and some of it just feels utterly irrational. Kamara is one of the best signings we have made in decades, i couldn't believe we pulled off that signing - considering it was Stevie G that helped make it happen... he is still young and new to the league, he clearly has shown he can perform like a star and also make some bad mistakes but i think he will get better just like Doug did, just my opinion though. you make some good points. I think one of the most confusing elements of debate, is when one guy/gal is talking about a players performance or elements of it, in a game, and another is talking about his career status or general performances. as an example....I really value and rate Ollie Watkins, but last weeks offering was puny imo, after the performance at Villa Park against the same centre backs was deemed a master class, last season. We all know consistency defines great players, and inconsistency seperates the good ones from that elite group....one of the biggest contributors to that consistency is application......if players are only up for it, in irregular patterns, they will never achieve elite status. However, I am not sure what you mean by presenting opinions as facts.....That to me is in the mind of the recipient......ALL our views on players, are opinions, by everyone, even the manager......a strong and well articulated opinion may be convincing, but its still an opinion. We all look for different things in a game, hence the line " you must be watching a different game"......sadly, its worded wrong, what they mean is, you are looking at different elements of the game to me....which happens regularly. as another example.....A player can have a great game in terms of passing and moving, but when it comes to closing down, tackling and winning duels, he is left wanting......now that scenario, can easily divide opinion, and vary the optics of the observer. I think many of us need to differentiate, with a good or bad player, having a good or bad game.......Good players have bad games, and bad players have good games......thats up to us as spectators, to get that bit right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAMAICAN-VILLAN Posted August 17, 2023 Share Posted August 17, 2023 1 hour ago, Vive_La_Villa said: Leave Donk out of this mate. He’s shit Yes.... I was specifically throwing shade at you Amo! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAMAICAN-VILLAN Posted August 17, 2023 Share Posted August 17, 2023 1 hour ago, Tom13 said: I had no idea where you were trying to go with your original post either, hence my reply. Unfortunately, there will always be way over the top opinions on here, there's too many people on here not to have big differences in opinion. Some though, in my opinion, such as wanting to sell Kamara, are almost unjustifiable. We all have our favourites, the ones we can't stand, different posting styles and sometimes text can come across as it may not be meant to as well. I agree that people wanting to sell Kamara are bonkers lol. Although, 100 mill plus and you may have to start considering. I'm not for dismantling the team right now as they are gaining chemistry either though. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom13 Posted August 17, 2023 Share Posted August 17, 2023 (edited) 14 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said: We all have our favourites, the ones we can't stand, different posting styles and sometimes text can come across as it may not be meant to as well. I agree that people wanting to sell Kamara are bonkers lol. Although, 100 mill plus and you may have to start considering. I'm not for dismantling the team right now as they are gaining chemistry either though. Let's just hope we win on Sun mate, otherwise this place could get even more toxic Edited August 17, 2023 by Tom13 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ROTTERDAM1982 Posted August 17, 2023 Share Posted August 17, 2023 He is our best outfield player. We build a team around him and Ramsey in midfield. He is a top 4 player 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Posted August 17, 2023 Share Posted August 17, 2023 2 hours ago, striker said: I’d sell both Kamara and Luiz if the offers were good enough and rebuild the centre of midfield. I wouldn't, so we wouldn't need to rebuild the centre of our midfield. 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheepyvillian Posted August 17, 2023 Share Posted August 17, 2023 4 hours ago, Lerner's Driver said: This is an interesting statement.You are clear that criticism of Kamara is unjustified, which seems strange to me. He can be both very good and experience a dip in form, which would surely make him deserving of criticism, no? Are you suggesting we exempt players from critical analysis because they are mostly good? Similarly, John McGinn is a strange example to support your argument. He struggles in some positions/systems and thrives in others. It is hugely to his credit that he is willing to play wherever the manager wants him to, even if that diminishes him being able to show his abilities, but nonetheless, he does sometimes struggle and so is deserving of criticism. He isn't perfect. I think all fans lose their objectivity where it comes to their favourite players. It is possible for a player to be mostly very good and deserving of criticism, the two are not mutually exclusive. For the record (lol), noone is saying Boubs or McGinn are not very good players, they both are, but they do both have/are capable of having poor games/dips in form and it is absolutely fine to acknowledge that. There's no bandwagon, no conspiracy, no scapegoating, people are just expressing their opinion based on what they see. Depends on the type of criticism. I criticise players myself but I like to think it's fair and objective, as it should be. However, when that criticism becomes somewhat personal and, imo, over the top in that detestable vitriolic manner, then it is something altogether different, as was seen last season in regards to SJM. One poster even felt the need to apologise and rightly so. Of course I understand players are their to be held to account when their performances fall short. In the same way you say it's just an expression of opinions to what people see, well I most certainly saw McGinn scapegoated for our struggle under Gerrard. Was he poor? He most certainly was, but he never stopped trying or attempt to shirk his responsibilities however, some of the vitriol aimed his way was at times disgusting and embarrassing to any decent supporter of this club. The point I was making was let's hope Kamara doesn't have to suffer the same kind of abuse. Not criticism, abuse. There's a difference, and as I stated, I have no problem with concerned measured criticism, none whatsoever. I just don't like when a player is constantly singled out to the point where he becomes almost a figure of hate. Leon Bailey is constantly criticised, sometimes justly, other times, not so justly and that's when it starts to become abusive, because he's "just not good enough," "a waste of money" and then it almost becomes open season on Bailey to be the centre of criticism, and that's what I mean when I use the term scapegoat. It always feels like there's that one player who gets singled out more than others,, and my point was, somewhat lightheartedly, that I hope Kamara doesn't become that player. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted August 17, 2023 Share Posted August 17, 2023 40 minutes ago, John said: I wouldn't, so we wouldn't need to rebuild the centre of our midfield. This. 'Let's rip up one of the strongest parts of our team and roll the dice trying to rebuild it, just for the **** of it' 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lerner's Driver Posted August 17, 2023 Share Posted August 17, 2023 1 hour ago, sheepyvillian said: Depends on the type of criticism. I criticise players myself but I like to think it's fair and objective, as it should be. However, when that criticism becomes somewhat personal and, imo, over the top in that detestable vitriolic manner, then it is something altogether different, as was seen last season in regards to SJM. One poster even felt the need to apologise and rightly so. Of course I understand players are their to be held to account when their performances fall short. In the same way you say it's just an expression of opinions to what people see, well I most certainly saw McGinn scapegoated for our struggle under Gerrard. Was he poor? He most certainly was, but he never stopped trying or attempt to shirk his responsibilities however, some of the vitriol aimed his way was at times disgusting and embarrassing to any decent supporter of this club. The point I was making was let's hope Kamara doesn't have to suffer the same kind of abuse. Not criticism, abuse. There's a difference, and as I stated, I have no problem with concerned measured criticism, none whatsoever. I just don't like when a player is constantly singled out to the point where he becomes almost a figure of hate. Leon Bailey is constantly criticised, sometimes justly, other times, not so justly and that's when it starts to become abusive, because he's "just not good enough," "a waste of money" and then it almost becomes open season on Bailey to be the centre of criticism, and that's what I mean when I use the term scapegoat. It always feels like there's that one player who gets singled out more than others,, and my point was, somewhat lightheartedly, that I hope Kamara doesn't become that player. That is all very fair, reasonable and well argued. I agree with almost everything you say. Not sure we are ever likely to see open season on Kamara, he isn't ever likely to deserve it. Bailey is very frustrating, so I can imagine "not good enough" and "waste of money" could end up being true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sheepyvillian Posted August 17, 2023 Share Posted August 17, 2023 4 minutes ago, Lerner's Driver said: That is all very fair, reasonable and well argued. I agree with almost everything you say. Not sure we are ever likely to see open season on Kamara, he isn't ever likely to deserve it. Bailey is very frustrating, so I can imagine "not good enough" and "waste of money" could end up being true. And that's a fair assessment. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillanousOne Posted August 17, 2023 Share Posted August 17, 2023 2 hours ago, TRO said: you make some good points. I think one of the most confusing elements of debate, is when one guy/gal is talking about a players performance or elements of it, in a game, and another is talking about his career status or general performances. as an example....I really value and rate Ollie Watkins, but last weeks offering was puny imo, after the performance at Villa Park against the same centre backs was deemed a master class, last season. We all know consistency defines great players, and inconsistency seperates the good ones from that elite group....one of the biggest contributors to that consistency is application......if players are only up for it, in irregular patterns, they will never achieve elite status. However, I am not sure what you mean by presenting opinions as facts.....That to me is in the mind of the recipient......ALL our views on players, are opinions, by everyone, even the manager......a strong and well articulated opinion may be convincing, but its still an opinion. We all look for different things in a game, hence the line " you must be watching a different game"......sadly, its worded wrong, what they mean is, you are looking at different elements of the game to me....which happens regularly. as another example.....A player can have a great game in terms of passing and moving, but when it comes to closing down, tackling and winning duels, he is left wanting......now that scenario, can easily divide opinion, and vary the optics of the observer. I think many of us need to differentiate, with a good or bad player, having a good or bad game.......Good players have bad games, and bad players have good games......thats up to us as spectators, to get that bit right. I personally don't like statements like 'don't worry weren't not signing X' 'he'll never play for us again' 'we won't pay X for X' etc often definitive statements that imply some specialist insider knowledge or knowing better than anyone else on a forum full of fans who have the same information access as everyone else. again possibly just me... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlwaysAVFC Posted August 17, 2023 Share Posted August 17, 2023 I don't think he had a great game last week. He does seem like a player that needs a game or 2 to get his rhythm going though. I feel his bad games were first off and after injury. Not too worried he is a class act. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lerner's Driver Posted August 17, 2023 Share Posted August 17, 2023 3 minutes ago, VillanousOne said: I personally don't like statements like 'don't worry weren't not signing X' 'he'll never play for us again' 'we won't pay X for X' etc often definitive statements that imply some specialist insider knowledge or knowing better than anyone else on a forum full of fans who have the same information access as everyone else. again possibly just me... No, I agree. When writing on any kind of media, there isn't much that is less convincing than an unfounded assertion. Loads of fans do it out of a desire to appear knowledgeable or authoritative on the topic, but they just sound dumb. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom13 Posted August 17, 2023 Share Posted August 17, 2023 6 minutes ago, Lerner's Driver said: No, I agree. When writing on any kind of media, there isn't much that is less convincing than an unfounded assertion. Loads of fans do it out of a desire to appear knowledgeable or authoritative on the topic, but they just sound dumb. Unfounded assertion is better than I've ever put it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobzy Posted August 17, 2023 Share Posted August 17, 2023 6 hours ago, Lerner's Driver said: Agreed, so he can be both mostly excellent and sometimes criticised for a poor showing, or not? Is he exempt? 6 hours ago, est1874 said: He's exempt. Nobody is allowed to be criticised on here. Of course he can be criticised - why are people such delicate little flowers on here? It’s just crazy to suggest he’s out of form after 1 game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villaglint Posted August 17, 2023 Share Posted August 17, 2023 Other than the last 20min when the whole team fell apart I thought he was one of our better players. Will leave conversation now and read no replies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
striker Posted August 17, 2023 Visiting Supporter Share Posted August 17, 2023 4 hours ago, OLDVILLAIN said: Yeah i am sure you would and before the everton match this weekend also Nothing to do with the Everton game. Villa have been my number one team for a while now but I still support both. I like Kamara. Great signing on a free and a very good footballer but he’s so inconsistent and a bit lightweight! If the right offer was made for him and I mean 50m plus I’d take it and trust in Emery to bring in better. I’ve already made my opinion clear on Luiz so no need to go into all of that again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAMAICAN-VILLAN Posted August 17, 2023 Share Posted August 17, 2023 I'm now convinced agent @striker wants to weaken us so Everton can overtake us Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted August 17, 2023 Share Posted August 17, 2023 (edited) 8 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said: I'm now convinced agent @striker wants to weaken us so Everton can overtake us It's a bold move and definitely one for the long haul. 1) Set up an account on a Villa forum 2) Introduce yourself as an Everton/Villa sort of fan 3) Slowly try and influence public opinion on the forum 4) Hope that others agree with the mental ideas 5) ???? 6) Profit! Edited August 17, 2023 by lexicon 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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