Team shape, tactics and personnel

[tezzaleed]

20 hours ago, tinker said:

This, I don't understand why people are ignoring the fact we are playing with a 3 man defence with our fullbacks being right up front. We are then relying on Ramsey and McGinn to cover for them. Dougie staying largely in the middle.

If we play the same system against Newcastle and let a few goals in then questions need to be asked,  why are we are persisting with a system that we haven't got the players for, wait until we have a decent DM and then try it. 

I think its worse than that in that Gerrard relies entirely on wing backs for any sort of width and at the moment cash hasn't got a clue where he's meant to be playing.  digne to some extent gets it, as he's more of a wing back than a full back but cash is neither offering enough attacking width or taking up the right defensive positions when we're under attack. he's just not ready for it.  I agree that without a proper defensive midfielder this isn't really working.  should have offered another 10m for bissouma.

[allani]

19 hours ago, hippo said:

Sure.

My personal feeling is that we have decent players already.  But we are all in on Stevie G having a clear out and bringing his own guys in.

We do have decent players.  We have plenty of players who are decent enough to finish somewhere between 9th and 13th.  They will be great one week, not so great the next.  If we want to finish higher than 8th then we need better starting players than Mings / Konsa (I think with the right upgrade on one - the other will actually become much better), Cash, McGinn and Ollie.  I still think that with a good partner, Dougie Luiz could be a good player but he is probably also in the "must improve" list.  When we have those types of players on the bench then we will be in a much better position. 

[allani]

1 hour ago, nick76 said:

I am fussed about this season because where we land in the league could impact who we can attract.  Obviously league isn’t the end of the world but if we are 12th or 13th competing with Arsenal and Spurs in 6th and 7th it’s already going to be hard on the back of the European place and London thing to compete for players.  

If we are 8th or 9th, while those two factors are massive then our other positives can be pushed, the Gerrard factor, the continuous ambition and growth, players like Coutinho being here blah blah.  

The lower the league position could impact us…would Bissouma join us if we ended up 12th or 13th when Brighton end up 9th.  Even with all our positives it’s not as inviting when he seems to want European football in the near future.

At the start of the Leeds game I thought a draw wouldn’t be too bad but I wanted the win.  Our form against has been erratic mainly because of them but I was highly disappointed after the game and reflecting back that we didn’t win and in my mind it was all our own doing.  Newcastle I think will be a tough game for many reasons despite their league position but I think momentum wise we need a win, we need to start winning.

Exactly.  If Newcastle survive then they still have a tough job convincing good players that signing for a team that finished in (probably) the bottom 5 is a good career move.  If we only finish a couple of places higher then we'll have it just as tough.  To sell the dream we really need to be close on the shirt-tails of the teams in Europe.

Leeds was an odd one for me.  Attacking wise - at least for parts of the game - was probably the best / most optimistic I have felt about Villa in many years.  The way that Emi, Coutinho and JJ tore Leeds to shreds was insane.  I don't think we have scored many better "team goals" than the three we scored in midweek.  Obviously, defense wise it was awful, woeful and there is no excuse for some of the performances out there.  Our players just wanted it less than Leeds did.

On the positive side - had we beaten Leeds we would have been almost exactly where we need to be, just a couple of good results away from "best of the rest".  On the negative side - we are also only a few bad results away from being dropped back into the "just good enough to avoid the relegation battle" group.

[tinker]

45 minutes ago, tezzaleed said:

I think its worse than that in that Gerrard relies entirely on wing backs for any sort of width and at the moment cash hasn't got a clue where he's meant to be playing.  digne to some extent gets it, as he's more of a wing back than a full back but cash is neither offering enough attacking width or taking up the right defensive positions when we're under attack. he's just not ready for it.  I agree that without a proper defensive midfielder this isn't really working.  should have offered another 10m for bissouma.

We should just adapt a system to the players we have. We have £60m + of wingers, once they are injury free it's going to be interesting to see if they can be shoe horned in.  Fingers crossed we can stem the flow of goals against us. We gave Leeds far to much possession all over the pitch. They closed our midfielders down instantly. 

[Tom13]

10 hours ago, MessiWillSignForVilla said:

SP would be set piece goals, which makes me assume 1st contact percentage would mean how often he's targeted at set peices, possibly?

Which would indicate these are set peice instructions hence why Coutinho would have Harrison, as he wouldn't mark him in game (Similarly Ings has Rodrigo), so I think that may be more of a McPhee thing than a Gerrard one.

 

The most interesting thing for me is why the hell is there still an El Ghazi shirt there? I know he's still our player, but you'd imagine they wouldn't put it up every game, so has it been just hanging there since he went to Everton like some strange memorial?

Yeah as it also includes their height, think you're spot on that it's McPhee.

[Sam-AVFC]

If we're going to play a left back that is mostly in the opponents half, a 10 that doesn't press and our most attacking midfielder (at the ripe old age of 20) on the same side then massive holes are going to be left. So far I've failed to identify any plan to deal with this.

I'd be interested if any more tactically astute posters could enlighten me, even explaining how we appear to be trying to cover the space even if it's failing.

[MaVilla]

1 minute ago, Sam-AVFC said:

If we're going to play a left back that is mostly in the opponents half, a 10 that doesn't press and our most attacking midfielder (at the ripe old age of 20) on the same side then massive holes are going to be left. So far I've failed to identify any plan to deal with this.

I'd be interested if any more tactically astute posters could enlighten me, even explaining how we appear to be trying to cover the space even if it's failing.

i could show you, if you are genuinely interested?

Dont wanna do it if not, as will take me a few mins to do the formations etc

[Jbvilla909]

12 games lost under two different managers, millions spent. 

Not sure what we change next tbh

[Sam-AVFC]

4 minutes ago, MaVilla said:

i could show you, if you are genuinely interested?

Dont wanna do it if not, as will take me a few mins to do the formations etc

I genuinely am! If I can understand what we're trying to do, but see the players are struggling to implement it then it's something that will annoy me much less.

Don't worry about diagrams though. I can watch out for it in games.

I get the midfielders tucking in behind the fullbacks, but they're so often not there and when they aren't we get torn apart on the counter.

[avfc1982am]

We are too narrow and too stretched in defence when countered. Smith had similar issues earlier in the season with the wingback system in order to tighten the midfield. It came at a cost and now Gerrard is finding out for himself. You need width. Not just a reliance on FBs to provide it. We are an easy team to pick off now. It's like teams are adjusting and just going around our midfield.

[MaVilla]

29 minutes ago, Sam-AVFC said:

If we're going to play a left back that is mostly in the opponents half, a 10 that doesn't press and our most attacking midfielder (at the ripe old age of 20) on the same side then massive holes are going to be left. So far I've failed to identify any plan to deal with this.

I'd be interested if any more tactically astute posters could enlighten me, even explaining how we appear to be trying to cover the space even if it's failing.

in defence, like this:

- force opposition wide.

- pack the centre

- be hard to play through and break down.

- press to left or right and isolate opposition players out wide.

 

In transition:

- full backs provide width.

- MCL/MCR go left/right to cover for full backs, and offer competent passing from deep midfielders, while the FBs bomb on.

- load the midfield to overload numbers and provide control in the middle with crisp, slick passing.

- Or use the FB width to stretch team and overload going forward.

 

In Attack:

- invert the pyramid.

- full backs provide width.

- AML/ST/AMR create overloads in the middle or shift wide as a unit for overloads, allowing crisp, intricate passing and chance creation.

- MCL/MCR, if needed hold back slightly to provide competent passing ability from deep and cover for the full backs bombing on, or support/cover for the progressive full backs as needed, or if we are in dominance, they can break forward and the DM supports the DCs.

 

the problems with current Villa:

- Our current DM isnt aggressive/physical enough to support the other players being so progressive, we really need a DM who is BOTH technically capable, but ALSO physically capable.

- The system relies heavily on players being comfortable with intricate passes & controlling the midfield - i think players like McGinn cant do this.

- Heavy reliance on the technical ability of the full backs going forward - i dont this Cash is capable of this.

- Heavy reliance on the front 3 being able to feed off each other, move, pass, be dangerous and create mayhem - i dont think Watkins is capable of this.

- The fact some players dont seem capable of playing the system properly, means we get a lot of hoof balls, as not enough players are showing for the ball deep to build and control the midfield, or if they do, they just arent technically good enough to play in the tight spaces and it turns in to a s*** show.

- in a nutshell, imo.....we are trying to play almost a mini Man City/Liverpool style of aggression/possession, skill, intricate passing, very technical heavy football, and unfortunately, 4-6 of our starting 11 just arent good enough to do it, leading to it breaking down and the ball being lumped forward, mis-placed passes, poor decisions etc etc.

 

If during the summer, we can buy 3-5 high quality players, we could probably play it, but right now...i dunno, we seem to be unable to do it, as a few of are players are simply not capable of playing the system.

 

NOTE: all of this is my own take on it, and my own opinion.

 

 

Edited February 13, 2022 by MaVilla

[sparrow1988]

Sanson - Luiz - Ramsey.

Give it three games and see what happens. I can't stand to look at McGinn in there anymore. Maybe being dropped for a period might put a rocket up his arse.

Edited February 13, 2022 by sparrow1988

[Sam-AVFC]

Thanks @MaVilla, that's very kind of you.

[Rightdm00]

3 hours ago, tinker said:

We should just adapt a system to the players we have. We have £60m + of wingers, once they are injury free it's going to be interesting to see if they can be shoe horned in.  Fingers crossed we can stem the flow of goals against us. We gave Leeds far to much possession all over the pitch. They closed our midfielders down instantly. 

Yep this team has wide players for days and Steven shows up and tells Cash, who became a fullback because he was a crap winger, to be our wide attacker. It's not working. I feel like I'm spamming the board with this complaint but it's been boiling in me for a couple weeks now. 

I even went and watched a couple Liverpool games, paying close attention to their attacking fullbacks. Klopp supports them with multiple players. For example, when TAA recieves the ball out wide he usually has a midfielder and Salah close by for support. He's not expected to beat his marker by himself. Maybe this setup worked in the SPL but it's a lost cause here. Something had to change and quick. 

[tinker]

32 minutes ago, Jbvilla909 said:

12 games lost under two different managers, millions spent. 

Not sure what we change next tbh

Purslow, we need someone who ca pick a manager and at the right time. That's if Gerrard doesn't work out which he might if he can adapt the players to a formation that suit them. Its his time to shine. 

[PerryBarrPet]

15 minutes ago, sparrow1988 said:

Sanson - Luiz - Ramsey.

Give it three games and see what happens. I can't stand to look at McGinn in there anymore. Maybe being dropped for a period might put a rocket up his arse.

I do like McGinn but he’s not very good at the defensive part of the game. I think in Gerard’s system the midfield three need to be primarily battlers leaving much of the creative work to full backs, and the front three.  

[TomC]

4 hours ago, tezzaleed said:

digne to some extent gets it, as he's more of a wing back than a full back but cash is neither offering enough attacking width or taking up the right defensive positions when we're under attack. he's just not ready for it.

I disagree. Cash gets into dangerous positions often enough going forward, and his defending has improved from last year. His real problem is the final ball.

 

[avfc1982am]

12 minutes ago, TomC said:

I disagree. Cash gets into dangerous positions often enough going forward, and his defending has improved from last year. His real problem is the final ball.

 

It's not just the final ball. It's his first touch, second touch and his final ball.. His decision making leaves a lot to be desired in truth. 

[Awol]

Don't think Gerrard will change team shape or tactics, but after today I think he'll twist on the midfield three and drop Watkins. He said Iroegbunam was very close to a debut so maybe it's his turn next game. Sanson has to come in for McGinn, and maybe Luiz gets his shot at playing as an 8 instead of the holding DM with JJ dropped to the bench. It's also past time for Ings to get a run of games as the single striker. Big chance for a few players to stake a claim after today, and I hope they do. 

[DCJonah]

I'd like to see us play with a 10 and two wingers but I don't think we will. 

Buendia and Bailey out wide, Countinho behind a striker. 

Ramsay and Luiz in midfield.