Team shape, tactics and personnel

[duke313]

8 hours ago, burchy said:

 

I’d like the below personally, with a squad that could easily accommodate an Emery 4231/442/433 hybrid  

                                     Martinez
                                      (NEW)        

       Konsa            Carlos            Torres      Moreno*1
(Young/Cash)    (Konsa)          (Mings)         (Digne)

                      Kokcu                    Kamara
               (Luiz/Sanson)       (Dendonker/Tim)     

         Bailey                 Buendia                   Diaby          
     (Bakayoko/         (Kang Lee/      (Ramsey/Cherki/
        Cherki)                McGinn)             Schjelderup)  

                               (NEW Starter ST)
                       Watkins/Archer/NEW Backup

Wishful thinking perhaps, especially Diaby but over the next two windows something like this for next season would do nicely. 

11 players total, 5 starters, 6 youth/squad

No idea who half of these players are. How does Bailey and Buendia still start over Ramsey?

[burchy]

4 hours ago, duke313 said:

No idea who half of these players are. How does Bailey and Buendia still start over Ramsey?

I’d perhaps go Ramsey LW if we didn’t get someone in like Diaby. My point was not necessarily the starting spots up top, more the squad to cope with different formations. 

I do rate Bailey and Buendia personally but their form is dire at present. 

[Indigo]

12 hours ago, MaVilla said:

you know what, i was gonna post something similar.

I wondered if when Carlos is fit, if either Carlos or Konsa would play RB.

I know it sounds strange on paper, but Emery did almost exactly this at Villerreal, Foyth (who is a CB) played RB in the base 442.

However, he wasnt actually a "RB", as in attack Emery liked his left back to get forward, then the 3 remaining defenders moved left to create a back 3, this is why Foyth "on paper" played at RB for Villerreal, as when attacking Foyth then became the outside right CB of the 3.

for example....

in base formation:

 

Going Forward:

 

it does look strange, but this is exactly how Emery set up Villerreal, with a defensive centre back, capable of playing RB defensively, but in attack it becomes a back 3 and the RB becomes an outside CB.

 

Maybe im barking up the wrong tree, but it has crossed my mind a few times now maybe im looking too much in to what Emery did at Villerreal.

 

Not just Emery but a lot of coaches are doing similar nowadays. Even at the top of the league you have Arsenal playing White/Tomiyasu at right back, Pep using Stones/Akanji/Ake this way etc. There's been games already where we already aren't a million miles off, so I'd imagine it's the route that's being gone down. Not sure I love the idea of Konsa doing it mind.

 

[duke313]

12 minutes ago, Indigo said:

Not just Emery but a lot of coaches are doing similar nowadays. Even at the top of the league you have Arsenal playing White/Tomiyasu at right back, Pep using Stones/Akanji/Ake this way etc. There's been games already where we already aren't a million miles off, so I'd imagine it's the route that's being gone down. Not sure I love the idea of Konsa doing it mind.

 

He's definitely played there for a us a few times before.  Hed be staying back and would need a winger in front of him, so don't think it would be an issue as a stop gap, not a permanent thing of course,

Edited January 10, 2023 by duke313

[Made In Aston]

I often laugh at reactionary posts when we lose, saying we should get rid of the lot of them. But they might actually have a point.

Individually the players are technically good enough but there is a lazy mentality in the squad. New manager comes in and they give 100% then drop off after a few weeks. It happened with Gerrard and again with Emery. A mentally strong player is able to keep pushing themselves on a regular basis and we don't seem to have enough of these in the squad.

I think, like arsenal when arteta took over, there will be a couple of transitional seasons while we build a stronger group. This means getting rid of a lot of the current crop and facing inconsistent performances during that time unfortunately. 

Edited January 10, 2023 by Made In Aston

[Laughable Chimp]

On the left back being more adventurous and the right back being more stay at home tactic that emery apparently likes to use, if he is going to reuse it here, I’m sure he’s not so rigid about it that the roles are stuck to these positions.

Like, there’s no real difference between the left side and the right side of the pitch. If the players he has at right back is better suited to be more adventurous and the left to be more defensice, surely he isn’t going to force them to play ill suited roles or just bin them off and get new players?

[CVByrne]

13 minutes ago, Mark_1989 said:

I think we already know a bunch need replacing, first out the starting 11 needs to be Watkins and Bailey. Feel sorry for any manager having lofty targets when we carry the garbage we do in the squad.

Emery will get it right! 

I don't agree. Watkins with the right partner up front works imo. We know we'll get around 1 in 3 goals from Watkins and his workrate and pace is very good. He carries the ball forward at pace and will fit on the right team. That new forward is key to this. Emery has said as much it's Watkins/Ings + new forward with different attributes

We need JJ in the side as he's a big goal threat and is very clinical when it comes to taking chances. He's only 21 still which is mad, feels like he's been around forever at this stage.

We need a new addition or an in form Bailey to be the other attacking player on the other side to JJ of midfield as part of the middle two of 4 2 2 2. 

Emery will get it right but two of the players of the 4 attacking players are missing from the puzzle. 

[Morley_crosses_to_Withe]

On 09/01/2023 at 21:02, markavfc40 said:

Whilst I can totally appreciate what you are saying I think another way of putting it would be that we are being patient. I too think that at times, especially the last two games that there has been too much sideways/backwards passing, but I guess what we are trying to do is retain possession whilst trying to carve out an opening. The trouble has been that our creative players haven't off the back of this patient approach threaded through too many defensive splitting passes or that the likes of Bailey haven't gone down the wings or got in behind and put in chance creating crosses.

As disappointed as I was with yesterday and with the first half against Wolves I can at least take solace in the fact I can see what we are trying to do under Emery whereas under his predecessor I didn't have a clue.  Yesterday we had 80% possession, against Wolves just under 60%. With that amount of possession you'd think we would have carved out more chances than we did but the trouble is the players that you'd expect to - Coutinho, Buendia, Bailey are all off it at the moment. 

I wouldn't expect Emery to be throwing the baby out with the bath water though and wouldn't expect, or want, him to rethink what he is trying to implement. Given the limited time he has been here the fact he has made us a side now able to keep possession much better is some going. Off the back of that possession and patient approach though you clearly need your creative players to provide those moments and create those good chances. If those within the squad can't then I am under zero doubt they will soon be replaced.

I am confident we will get there eventually but it will take a lot more work on the training ground, two or three transfer windows and there are likely to be a lot of in game hiccups and disappointments along the way.

Moments of magic?

 

 

 

 

Edited January 11, 2023 by Morley_crosses_to_Withe

[Zatman]

On 09/01/2023 at 13:03, Zhan_Zhuang said:

It's what many have said for a long time now, the players just aren't good enough.

Massive squad overhaul incoming....

This was mainly the reserve team in fairness. At least 4 maybe 5 of them I can see moving on soon

[MaVilla]

19 hours ago, Made In Aston said:

I often laugh at reactionary posts when we lose, saying we should get rid of the lot of them. But they might actually have a point.

Individually the players are technically good enough but there is a lazy mentality in the squad. New manager comes in and they give 100% then drop off after a few weeks. It happened with Gerrard and again with Emery. A mentally strong player is able to keep pushing themselves on a regular basis and we don't seem to have enough of these in the squad.

I think, like arsenal when arteta took over, there will be a couple of transitional seasons while we build a stronger group. This means getting rid of a lot of the current crop and facing inconsistent performances during that time unfortunately. 

it also happened with Smith.

[MaVilla]

if we got Guendouzi, and when Carlos is fit, "and" we add a new wide/inside forward/shadow striker type, i could honestly see this:

Base formation:

 

Going Forward:

 

this is roughly how Emery played at Villerreal.

[MentalM]

6 minutes ago, MaVilla said:

if we got Guendouzi, and when Carlos is fit, "and" we add a new wide/inside forward/shadow striker type, i could honestly see this:

Base formation:

 

Going Forward:

 

this is roughly how Emery played at Villerreal.

I agree this looks solid. Could also play Ramsey in the open spot there and Buendia/Bailey on the right.

[MaVilla]

4 minutes ago, MentalM said:

I agree this looks solid. Could also play Ramsey in the open spot there and Buendia/Bailey on the right.

yeah quite possibly.

[TomC]

On 09/01/2023 at 10:00, DJBOB said:

So far, our main build up against a defense that has dug in is a 3-2-5. Ironically, not too dissimilar from Gerrard. A lot of sides employ a similar formation in this manner with players having the license to switch and interchange. The one thing we do not do and which is key to this formation and really against most oppositions - is split the defense between their FB and CB. That is really where you will get most of your joy. Too many times our attacks end with either the wide player trying to cross it but being outside of the opposing fullback or a long shot or...a precise tiki taka but that is rare from Villa and not to their strengths (short passing in tight spaces). We pulled one off against Stevenage but that is far from the norm. 

There are two things that we do not do, and you referred to the other one in the previous sentence. The players don't switch that much. Off the ball movement was one of our biggest weaknesses under SG and something that Unai needs to work on.

 

On 09/01/2023 at 16:32, DJBOB said:

We have scored most of our goals under Unai in quick transitions and high up the field interceptions. I think we will continue posing a threat away and against teams set up to attack us, but I wonder a lot about our form at home and teams willing to sit back against us. We will struggle until the summer unless Unai implements some miraculous turnarounds.

This applies not only to Unai but also to SG and Deano. Since promotion, we've been a counter-attacking team at heart. SG wanted to turn us into a possession team but seemed to have no clue how to break down a team sitting back. That is where Unai will succeed or fail.

 

[DJBOB]

3 hours ago, TomC said:

There are two things that we do not do, and you referred to the other one in the previous sentence. The players don't switch that much. Off the ball movement was one of our biggest weaknesses under SG and something that Unai needs to work on.

 

This applies not only to Unai but also to SG and Deano. Since promotion, we've been a counter-attacking team at heart. SG wanted to turn us into a possession team but seemed to have no clue how to break down a team sitting back. That is where Unai will succeed or fail.

 

Yes - they rarely interchange except for McGinn and Bailey choosing who's wide and who's in the half space.

Telling that the one goal we scored against Stevenage - no one was in their usual positions so Stevenage had a moment of confusion on who to mark and that was all it took to score a nicely worked goal.

And it all points back to not having anyone that can take on a man and score/pass except JJ on a regular basis and Bailey when his form isn't dire.

The 3-2-5 can be morphed and used to overload and isolate but even when we do isolate, the quality just isn't there 1v1 and at a certain level, you will have to win your 1v1's to break down a low block.

Edited January 11, 2023 by DJBOB

[TomC]

13 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

And it all points back to not having anyone that can take on a man and score/pass except JJ on a regular basis and Bailey when his form isn't dire.

The 3-2-5 can be morphed and used to overload and isolate but even when we do isolate, the quality just isn't there 1v1 and at a certain level, you will have to win your 1v1's to break down a low block.

To me, one of the most interesting aspects of the World Cup was how much people were running at defenders again. It's a shift from tiki-taka, and it's an ability we need.

 

[CVByrne]

8 hours ago, MaVilla said:

if we got Guendouzi, and when Carlos is fit, "and" we add a new wide/inside forward/shadow striker type, i could honestly see this:

Base formation:

 

Going Forward:

 

this is roughly how Emery played at Villerreal.

That's not fully correct because Emery had a winger on the Right. You've got 4 CMs basically in the Midfield 4 which he didn't play. 

He'd have a LB and RM as the "wingers" and a LM and two CMs as the midfield 3. He did play 3 CBs basically as RB was a CB at Spurs.

Up fronihe had a striker and a winger / forward combination. 

 

 

[DJBOB]

1 hour ago, TomC said:

To me, one of the most interesting aspects of the World Cup was how much people were running at defenders again. It's a shift from tiki-taka, and it's an ability we need.

 

Part of that is a function of World Cup tactics - primarily defensive - but you are right that the overall style of play was far more direct and vertical. 
 
Interesting the shifts of Spain’s dominance of the tiki taka style and then the shift to the more pressing and vertical tactics that Liverpool/Madrid employed in recent years. 

[TomC]

7 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

Part of that is a function of World Cup tactics - primarily defensive - but you are right that the overall style of play was far more direct and vertical. 
 
Interesting the shifts of Spain’s dominance of the tiki taka style and then the shift to the more pressing and vertical tactics that Liverpool/Madrid employed in recent years. 

Spain in this World Cup were the epitome of sterile possession. They kept the ball forever but had no idea how to break down teams. Bringing the conversation full circle, it did kind of remind me of Villa in some games.

 

[Tom13]

13 hours ago, TomC said:

Spain in this World Cup were the epitome of sterile possession. They kept the ball forever but had no idea how to break down teams. Bringing the conversation full circle, it did kind of remind me of Villa in some games.

In the Euros, they created a load of chances but just couldn't finish.