Team shape, tactics and personnel

[Kiwivillan]

8 minutes ago, TRO said:

Yes, I agree.

I don't think there will be one formation with Unai, he wil be flexible as to who we are playing......but I do think we will use 4-4-2 out of possession, quite often.

Last bit of pedantic formation post out of possession it's as video described or has been mentioned a 622 or a 4222 the very clear 4 with a 22 box in front. I just think 442 as traditional set up and not descriptive of what's happening

[gwi1890]

We play different away from home and we execute the plan better. Our style at home is adventurous it worked vs Man Utd and it backfired vs Liverpool. I think once we add to the squad ,teams will fear coming to Villa Park.

[CVByrne]

1 hour ago, TRO said:

I think 4-4-2 is the template to work from.....its the go to, out of possession formation.

My suspicion is each game will morph from it, depending on the opposition, but it will form the basis/platform of all what we do.

I am not saying we will play 4-4-2 in possession, in most of our games......I just think it will be the back to basics formation, for us.

I like the idea of it all.

Unai clearly knows his onions.....the trick is getting the players to learn it all, that will take time.

We change how we play often depending on if we are home or away, quality of opposition, specific threats from opposition and then the game state and gameplan. So away to a top 6 side is keep it tight don't concede in first half. The tactics change with the situation.

One big flaw with Gerrard was wanting a "style" of play. Which basically means opponents can easily plan how to beat you because you're predictable. We are anything but predictable now and even more than that we are going to be very very tactically flexible even during games.

We've the right coach for our position as a mid to upper mid table side

[sne]

On 12/08/2022 at 17:24, Jas10 said:

 

 

Good times!

Going back to around page 200 and onward in this thread it apparently had nothing to do with coaching  

[DJBOB]

One of the things I think to keep in mind as we progress through this season is that Unai has already shown a willingness to try different tactics depending on the opponent. I know there was a lot of questioning about the high line and the high press versus Liverpool and why we didn't use the tactics vs Spurs that we did against Liverpool but I think that was a case of the plan being correct, but the execution being off. Clearly from the Brentford game, Liverpool can be got at and we had plenty of chances against Liverpool that we just weren't clinical enough.

I've said it before - but I think this January is a true test of Unai's merit. Under Villareal and also during his stint with Arsenal - they were often a great counter-attacking side and were able to pull results against the bigger teams. But now we will have to break down low blocks and be afforded the ball more. In-game management - targeting of certain opposition players - creating overloads - adjustments and containing the other team's counters. We will learn a lot more about Unai's career progression in tactics from these matches in January than his highly pedigreed counter-attacks against opposition that controls the ball more.

Edited January 3, 2023 by DJBOB

[duke313]

1 minute ago, DJBOB said:

One of the things I think to keep in mind as we progress through this season is that Unai has already shown a willingness to try different tactics depending on the opponent. I know there was a lot of questioning about the high line and the high press versus Liverpool and why we didn't use the tactics vs Spurs that we did against Liverpool but I think that was a case of the plan being correct, but the execution being off. Clearly from the Brentford game, Liverpool can be got at and we had plenty of chances against Liverpool that we just weren't clinical enough.

I've said it before - but I think this January is a true test of Unai's merit. Under Villareal and also during his stint with Arsenal - they were often a great counter-attacking side and were able to pull results against the bigger teams. But now we will have to break down low blocks and be afforded the ball more. In-game management - targeting of certain opposition players - creating overloads - adjustments and containing the other team's counters. We will learn a lot more about Unai's tactics in progression from these matches in January than his highly pedigreed counter-attacks against opposition that controls the ball more.

These games will be ideal for Coutinho.  The speed of Bailey will not be required to break these teams, but Coutinho's vision will be.

[TRO]

3 hours ago, sne said:

Good times!

Going back to around page 200 and onward in this thread it apparently had nothing to do with coaching  

I think you will find, its a combination of many things, coaching being one, albeit an important part.

but coaching never saved us, from all those misses against Liverpool.

Nobody has suggested it has nothing to do with coaching, but its one element in many......There are other things to get right too, and we are getting them right, gradually.

Lets just enjoy it, without being smug.......

 

Edited January 3, 2023 by TRO

[TRO]

42 minutes ago, duke313 said:

These games will be ideal for Coutinho.  The speed of Bailey will not be required to break these teams, but Coutinho's vision will be.

We are currently, making space for ourselves....that will be music to Phils ears.

will be interesting to see a rejuvenated Phil, in due course.

[VillaJ100]

I honestly don't see there being a point in a years time where teams have 'figured us out' either like with West Ham currently. I think Emery is capable of coming up with a bespoke plan on a game by game basis to hurt every opponent. 

[OutByEaster?]

4 hours ago, duke313 said:

These games will be ideal for Coutinho.  The speed of Bailey will not be required to break these teams, but Coutinho's vision will be.

It's interesting that - I wouldn't have thought Coutinho would be looking to rival Bailey for a spot up front, I'd have seen him in one of the two advanced midfield roles.

The box shape when we have the ball, our sort of default, is like the below:

---------------------------------xxxxx----------------------------

xxxxx------------xxxxx---------xxxxx--------------xxxxx

---------------xxxxx----xxxxx------------------

------------xxxxx------------xxxxx-------------

---------------xxxxx----xxxxx------------------

I wouldn't put Coutinho in the front row of that, I'd put him in the second row.

Depth wise I'd say we have:

• Bailey and Watkins - who are currently starting up top, backed up by Ings and Archer.
• Buendia and McGinn - who are currently backed up by Coutinho and Ramsey
• Kamra and Luiz - who are currently backed up by Dendoncker and maybe Nakamba

I think we're thin up top and we'll spend money this month getting someone in and I think Coutinho might be a bit of an odd man out in that second line as I'm not sure we has the workrate to get back into the deeper/wider positions defensively when we're out of position and go 4-4-2/6-2-2. He looked sharp in his substitute appearance but I think we have to make some adjustments to our natural shape to accommodate him - thankfully I think we have a manager clever enough to do that.

 

[duke313]

5 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

It's interesting that - I wouldn't have thought Coutinho would be looking to rival Bailey for a spot up front, I'd have seen him in one of the two advanced midfield roles.

The box shape when we have the ball, our sort of default, is like the below:

---------------------------------xxxxx----------------------------

xxxxx------------xxxxx---------xxxxx--------------xxxxx

---------------xxxxx----xxxxx------------------

------------xxxxx------------xxxxx-------------

---------------xxxxx----xxxxx------------------

I wouldn't put Coutinho in the front row of that, I'd put him in the second row.

Depth wise I'd say we have:

• Bailey and Watkins - who are currently starting up top, backed up by Ings and Archer.
• Buendia and McGinn - who are currently backed up by Coutinho and Ramsey
• Kamra and Luiz - who are currently backed up by Dendoncker and maybe Nakamba

I think we're thin up top and we'll spend money this month getting someone in and I think Coutinho might be a bit of an odd man out in that second line as I'm not sure we has the workrate to get back into the deeper/wider positions defensively when we're out of position and go 4-4-2/6-2-2. He looked sharp in his substitute appearance but I think we have to make some adjustments to our natural shape to accommodate him - thankfully I think we have a manager clever enough to do that.

 

I don’t see Coutinho anywhere other than the front two in your example . There is no way Coutinho could have put the shift that Buendia put it, he doesn’t have the legs for it. Buendia and McGinn were basically playing as wing backs in the back 6, no way Coutinho could have done that.

He could take the place of Bailey in the current system, versus a low block. Other than a complete change of shape (which wouldn’t surprise be with Emery), I don’t see where else he fits.

 

 

[OutByEaster?]

5 minutes ago, duke313 said:

I don’t see Coutinho anywhere other than the front two in your example . There is no way Coutinho could have put the shift that Buendia put it, he doesn’t have the legs for it. Buendia and McGinn were basically playing as wing backs in the back 6, no way Coutinho could have done that.

He could take the place of Bailey in the current system, versus a low block. Other than a complete change of shape (which wouldn’t surprise be with Emery), I don’t see where else he fits.

I sort of agree in that I think he'd struggle to play as an attacking midfielder in the system, there's a massive demand on workload in those positions; you're a central midfielder, a full back and a wide midfielder all in one - you need legs, discipline and strength. I think the problem in the front two though is he hasn't got the pace for it - a big part of how we play is Buendia/McGinn drifting into areas that lure the full back in and then our quick forwards getting into the space behind them - he's not got that in the locker - he's not a man to chase long balls.

I think you're right in the idea that to get the best out of him we'd change the shape and I think you're right that Emery is more than capable of finding a way to do that. I have a feeling that in the short term we're going to be mostly seeing that from the bench. It looks like we'll change shape in the last half hour of games dependent on how things are going and I think that's going to bring him opportunities.

 

[CVByrne]

1 hour ago, OutByEaster? said:

It's interesting that - I wouldn't have thought Coutinho would be looking to rival Bailey for a spot up front, I'd have seen him in one of the two advanced midfield roles.

The box shape when we have the ball, our sort of default, is like the below:

---------------------------------xxxxx----------------------------

xxxxx------------xxxxx---------xxxxx--------------xxxxx

---------------xxxxx----xxxxx------------------

------------xxxxx------------xxxxx-------------

---------------xxxxx----xxxxx------------------

I wouldn't put Coutinho in the front row of that, I'd put him in the second row.

Depth wise I'd say we have:

• Bailey and Watkins - who are currently starting up top, backed up by Ings and Archer.
• Buendia and McGinn - who are currently backed up by Coutinho and Ramsey
• Kamra and Luiz - who are currently backed up by Dendoncker and maybe Nakamba

I think we're thin up top and we'll spend money this month getting someone in and I think Coutinho might be a bit of an odd man out in that second line as I'm not sure we has the workrate to get back into the deeper/wider positions defensively when we're out of position and go 4-4-2/6-2-2. He looked sharp in his substitute appearance but I think we have to make some adjustments to our natural shape to accommodate him - thankfully I think we have a manager clever enough to do that.

 

Agree with you, I'd see Coutinho taking McGinn's spot against Wolves if his hamstring strain keeps hm out. I could see him playing a second striker role the way Buendia did with Ings at Brighton.

I'm very interested in how we set up. This will be the first game we've played under Emery where we are favourites. We're a shade odds on to win with most bookies. This will be the first time we've seen Emery prep the team where we are home, expecting a win against a team in relegation battle

[ZL-]

41 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

The box shape when we have the ball, our sort of default, is like the below:

---------------------------------xxxxx----------------------------

xxxxx------------xxxxx---------xxxxx--------------xxxxx

---------------xxxxx----xxxxx------------------

------------xxxxx------------xxxxx-------------

---------------xxxxx----xxxxx------------------

 

I agree with the above would add the pivot to the back 4 as what seems to be our base, all constant positions in the variants of the 4-4-2, 6-2-2 and 4-2-2-2.

I think with the roles of the 4 shifting roles, looking back at our games under UE and what he tried at Villareal, he seems to plug and play these parts with a few different roles that he reacts to the specific opposition game.

The archetypes I've picked up on some far

Number 10 out wide:  Buendia, similar to how Pino was utilised, we could have Coutinho here but does require a discipline and physicality alongside playmaking that there is question marks over for PC. 

Pacey direct wide option: Ramsey, Bailey, like Chukwueze at Villareal. Even though we haven't seen Bailey there yet I can see the role being a better fit. Deulofeu or Sarr would give us cover here.

Bustling CM wide option: McGinn, a la Capoue at Villareal. Rumours of Rodrigo De Paul would put him in this category as a McGinn upgrade given his recent repurposing for that role at the WC.

Emery can play any combination of the above in the wide roles, even two of the same.

I think the pacey direct options are so key to our playstyle so we certainly need an addition here. We could also do with another technically capable wider play who can tuck in as a CM.

The front two ones more simply:

Target/Outlet forward: Watkins, Danjuma at Villareal. Can be an outlet with pace as well as strength sets tone on press also.

Second striker: Bailey like Moreno at Villareal. More of a mandate to peel wide and link play/run into space. Deulofeu has played this role during his recent success with Udinese. Archer you'd imagine could play this role too but seems to be going on loan.

Ings doesn't have the physicality for the first and it seems isn't trusted to drift laterally for the latter by UE.

I think a new second striker is a must but longer term some competition/youth outlet forward would also be welcomed.

Deulofeu would cover both second striker and pacey wide option which are really high on the list, Sarr perhaps also as well as both wings.

 

 

[OutByEaster?]

I agree with pretty much all of that.

I think it's notable that Emery had a little look at Kadan Young just in case he was ready to give him an option in the forward position as a back up to Bailey.

I definitely think we'll be in the market for a forward.

[DJBOB]

20 minutes ago, ZL- said:

I agree with the above would add the pivot to the back 4 as what seems to be our base, all constant positions in the variants of the 4-4-2, 6-2-2 and 4-2-2-2.

I think with the roles of the 4 shifting roles, looking back at our games under UE and what he tried at Villareal, he seems to plug and play these parts with a few different roles that he reacts to the specific opposition game.

The archetypes I've picked up on some far

Number 10 out wide:  Buendia, similar to how Pino was utilised, we could have Coutinho here but does require a discipline and physicality alongside playmaking that there is question marks over for PC. 

Pacey direct wide option: Ramsey, Bailey, like Chukwueze at Villareal. Even though we haven't seen Bailey there yet I can see the role being a better fit. Deulofeu or Sarr would give us cover here.

Bustling CM wide option: McGinn, a la Capoue at Villareal. Rumours of Rodrigo De Paul would put him in this category as a McGinn upgrade given his recent repurposing for that role at the WC.

Emery can play any combination of the above in the wide roles, even two of the same.

I think the pacey direct options are so key to our playstyle so we certainly need an addition here. We could also do with another technically capable wider play who can tuck in as a CM.

The front two ones more simply:

Target/Outlet forward: Watkins, Danjuma at Villareal. Can be an outlet with pace as well as strength sets tone on press also.

Second striker: Bailey like Moreno at Villareal. More of a mandate to peel wide and link play/run into space. Deulofeu has played this role during his recent success with Udinese. Archer you'd imagine could play this role too but seems to be going on loan.

Ings doesn't have the physicality for the first and it seems isn't trusted to drift laterally for the latter by UE.

I think a new second striker is a must but longer term some competition/youth outlet forward would also be welcomed.

Deulofeu would cover both second striker and pacey wide option which are really high on the list, Sarr perhaps also as well as both wings.

 

 

Agreed that Ings is the odd man out. I do find it odd that Archer hasn't seen any reasonable game time, but Unai knows what he's looking for and must not see it in training yet and/or Archer needs more game time to add those refinements.

[a-k]

If we are playing 4-4-2, I don't understand why we play with Bailey on the right (he's better on the left) and not Buendia there (best form has come on the right)

[DJBOB]

4 hours ago, a-k said:

If we are playing 4-4-2, I don't understand why we play with Bailey on the right (he's better on the left) and not Buendia there (best form has come on the right)

The way Unai sets up his team in the 4222 by default is one of the wide attacking mids plays more centrally (Buendia) and allows the attack fullback to overlap while the other attacking mid is more of a pacey/direct player and the fullback sits back more.

I think that Unai tags Digne as the more attacking fullback so Bailey and Digne can't play on the same side as Bailey will tend to drift wider to attack so Buendia naturally fits that role more.

I do agree that Buendia has done best with a wide right position but we do not have a naturally attacking fullback on the right. You could say Cash and he has sometimes been better bursting forward but we have mismatches/weaknesses in the fullback area on both sides. Digne is slow and outmuscled easily and cannot beat a man when attacking. Just always tries to cross early. Cash is more pacey but his defensive positioning can go AWOL and his attacking runs are very hit or miss.

Additionally - Bailey is our only attacker that can dribble at any pace (though many disagree at what pace) - so he has served both as the striker role and the wide mid role.

I think Unai will tinker more with the lineups as we continue but had his set XI (for the most part) for this 3 game-10 day stretch. I have confidence he will adjust but I think he naturally picks his counter-attacking side more even when we have come up against an opponent who should have more of the ball.

All of this to say - we have a natural lack of complimentary fullbacks and pacey dribblers that can really unlock teams.

Edited January 5, 2023 by DJBOB

[duke313]

1 hour ago, DJBOB said:

The way Unai sets up his team in the 4222 by default is one of the wide attacking mids plays more centrally (Buendia) and allows the attack fullback to overlap while the other attacking mid is more of a pacey/direct player and the fullback sits back more.

I think that Unai tags Digne as the more attacking fullback so Bailey and Digne can't play on the same side as Bailey will tend to drift wider to attack so Buendia naturally fits that role more.

I do agree that Buendia has done best with a wide right position but we do not have a naturally attacking fullback on the right. You could say Cash and he has sometimes been better bursting forward but we have mismatches/weaknesses in the fullback area on both sides. Digne is slow and outmuscled easily and cannot beat a man when attacking. Just always tries to cross early. Cash is more pacey but his defensive positioning can go AWOL and his attacking runs are very hit or miss.

Additionally - Bailey is our only attacker that can dribble at any pace (though many disagree at what pace) - so he has served both as the striker role and the wide mid role.

I think Unai will tinker more with the lineups as we continue but had his set XI (for the most part) for this 3 game-10 day stretch. I have confidence he will adjust but I think he naturally picks his counter-attacking side more even when we have come up against an opponent who should have more of the ball.

All of this to say - we have a natural lack of complimentary fullbacks and pacey dribblers that can really unlock teams.

That may change now if Digne falls out of favour.  Perhaps we will see Bailey switch to the left if Augustinsson plays.  I think Bailey would be much more effective on the left, his cutting in from the right is not really working at the minute IMO.  The good thing about Emery is he won't be afraid to change things.

[OutByEaster?]

5 minutes ago, duke313 said:

That may change now if Digne falls out of favour.  Perhaps we will see Bailey switch to the left if Augustinsson plays.  I think Bailey would be much more effective on the left, his cutting in from the right is not really working at the minute IMO.  The good thing about Emery is he won't be afraid to change things.

I don't see that happening because Watkins is much more effective on the left than the right - I can't see him swapping those two over.

2 hours ago, DJBOB said:

The way Unai sets up his team in the 4222 by default is one of the wide attacking mids plays more centrally (Buendia) and allows the attack fullback to overlap while the other attacking mid is more of a pacey/direct player and the fullback sits back more.

I'm not sure that's entirely correct - I certainly don't have McGinn down as a pacey/direct player at least - I think the midfielders are given both licence and instruction to drift - in forward areas, they can either pull wide to try to get the attention of the full back (allowing Watkins or Bailey to make runs in behind) or stay narrow to allow our full backs to overlap; in defensive situations they withdraw to a deep position outside of the full backs that gives us that six-at-the-back look and allows the back four to be really compact. It's a position that takes a lot of energy to play - they get through a hell of a lot of work.