VillaParkAvenue Posted August 20, 2022 Share Posted August 20, 2022 19 minutes ago, Chicken Field said: Don't shoot me, I know how Villatalk feels about it, its just a though Would it make sense playing with 5 at the back? this would allow digne and cash to continue to bomb forward and be covered by our center backs. In my opinion Cash and Digne are limited defensively.. It would also help us not get so overrun in counter attacks. Thirdly, it could cover the fact that our center backs are pretty limited. 3/5 at the back does work if implemented correctly and not used as a panic formation change like last time we tried (which I guess is where was a similar position to where we are now). So something along the lines of Martinez Cash, chambers, konsa, mings, digne Kamara, Luiz Bailey, watkins, buendia Changing to 3421, removing a central midfielder and adding a CB, could in theory make us even weaker in midfield. But if it means we stop using both number 8s so far up the pitch it could be an improvement I guess. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken Field Posted August 20, 2022 Share Posted August 20, 2022 19 minutes ago, VillaParkAvenue said: Changing to 3421, removing a central midfielder and adding a CB, could in theory make us even weaker in midfield. But if it means we stop using both number 8s so far up the pitch it could be an improvement I guess. I was once fascinated by a Sam Allardyce formation (I know, I know), back when he managed Blackburn, he barely had any fit strikers and when he used players up top, they weren't performing. So he ditched the striker and played a crazy 4-6-0 formation, the idea being that if the strikers were not performing, he might as well strengthen and overload other areas of the pitch. I think it worked for a few games, but a really interesting idea non the less. Not really the same situation for us, but our 3 midfielders don't win much possession and they cannot keep possession, basically they are anonymous for most of the game, it would hardly make a difference if we removed one of them (as long as that one is not Kamara). Might as well take one out and strengthen an other area of the pitch and kind of bypass the midfield. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishVilla10 Posted August 20, 2022 Share Posted August 20, 2022 If he doesn’t change it up next weekend he’s in denial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ender4 Posted August 20, 2022 Share Posted August 20, 2022 Just now, IrishVilla10 said: If he doesn’t change it up next weekend he’s in denial. The trouble now is that he’ll change it up just for the sake of changing it, not because he has a great tactical masterplan. And so of course it’ll fail and he’ll go back to his original plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Indigo Posted August 20, 2022 Share Posted August 20, 2022 Average positions against Bournemouth and from today. What a mess. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PieFacE Posted August 20, 2022 VT Supporter Share Posted August 20, 2022 3 minutes ago, Indigo said: Average positions against Bournemouth and from today. What a mess. We're so easy to exploit. Get any remotely quick winger/striker to sit in the huge empty spaces left by Digne and Cash and they're in. Such a pathetic system to play. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duke313 Posted August 20, 2022 Share Posted August 20, 2022 9 minutes ago, Indigo said: Average positions against Bournemouth and from today. What a mess. And look at Palace’s, far more balanced all over the pitch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted August 20, 2022 Share Posted August 20, 2022 5 hours ago, May-Z said: To me Palace are the epitomy of what we struggle against. The same for West Ham: Physical players who can use the ball. We just can't deal with them. Arguably, the players on both teams are of equal ability with a football, if not in Villa's favour in a lot of positions, but as soon as you add that extra bite, speed, and physicality we just get roasted. We need some of that. Well, a lot of that. Are they really physical though. Zaha you could blow over easily same with Eze and best players today Physicality thing is overblown for me 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa89 Posted August 20, 2022 Share Posted August 20, 2022 (edited) 52 minutes ago, IrishVilla10 said: If he doesn’t change it up next weekend he’s in denial. He doesn't know how to change it. Look at the subs he makes, zero impact. Edited August 20, 2022 by villa89 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted August 20, 2022 Share Posted August 20, 2022 1 hour ago, IrishVilla10 said: If he doesn’t change it up next weekend he’s in denial. I really really hope he doesn't have that chance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IrishVilla10 Posted August 20, 2022 Share Posted August 20, 2022 10 minutes ago, Zatman said: I really really hope he doesn't have that chance Me too but I’ll be more surprised if he’s sacked Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weedman Posted August 20, 2022 Share Posted August 20, 2022 I just don't get his tactics at all. I assumed he'd come here and set us up like Liverpool and I was all for it. I think their system is the best one for normal teams (normal as in, not Man City with several billion to spend on whatever player they feel like), but he just doesn't. We've even got the players to make it work but we just don't set up that way. Liverpool play a 9 that drops and plays as a hybrid 10 and 9 - similar to Ings, they have 2 inside forwards that attack the space vacated when the striker drops, similar to Bailey and Coutinho/Buendia, even Traore plays a similar style. Their midfield 3 is industrious, 1 who holds but they're all comfortable defending and getting back, Kamara, Luiz and McGinn/Sanson could play this system. Attacking full backs, check, and physical, quick CBs, Mings and Carlos fit the mould but Konsa is also suited now Carlos is injured. You could argue martinez is the one that doesn't suit the style as he's a defensive keeper rather than a sweeper. Sarr would also suit this inside forward role that they play, but he sets us up to be totally exposed. 1 holding mid and 2 mids that attack, alongside either 2 attacking 10s or a 10 and 2 strikers or a 10 and a winger and a striker, a high line with both full backs forward, the second we lose the ball we are completely vulnerable. On top of that Liverpool press press press, we stand off and let teams do what they want. Liverpool set up to have lots of passing options in the defensive third, to open space to hit their forwards line quickly. If there's space on the flanks they hit it for their inside forwards, if not they get the ball into the feet of their striker who then has options from the full backs wide or inside forwards attacking through the middle. We completely vacate the defensive third which leaves us no options but to hit and hope down the lines before the ball is on. The whole team bombs forwards and when we inevitably lose the ball as we've rushed it forward we're then left completely exposed. If we set up as a 433 and play Liverpool way we cannot play Ramsey and McGinn in midfield, they're too attacking and they kill our build up. 433 with kamara Luiz and probably Nakamba from our options, with Bailey and Coutinho flanking Ings and we'd be damn close to how Liverpool set up, obviously not on their level but we'd be defensively sound and have the forward line to cause problems. Then when the next transfer window rolls around we could incrementally upgrade players for those specific roles. Gerrard earns millions a year, surely he can see this?! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May-Z Posted August 20, 2022 Share Posted August 20, 2022 1 hour ago, Zatman said: Are they really physical though. Zaha you could blow over easily same with Eze and best players today Physicality thing is overblown for me More than we are. In one v one match ups, each of Palace's players are either stronger, faster, or firmer in the challenge. When that happens all over the pitch, we're always going to struggle. You mention physicality as being overblown but when two players skills sets are larger similar, but one is faster or stronger, then they will win that individual battle. Eze and Zaha don't get blown over when they are on the ball. They keep it very well and are difficult to disrupt. Coutinho gets blown over for example, Eze and Zaha don't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daft Posted August 21, 2022 Share Posted August 21, 2022 4 minutes ago, weedman said: I just don't get his tactics at all. I assumed he'd come here and set us up like Liverpool and I was all for it. I think their system is the best one for normal teams (normal as in, not Man City with several billion to spend on whatever player they feel like), but he just doesn't. We've even got the players to make it work but we just don't set up that way. Liverpool play a 9 that drops and plays as a hybrid 10 and 9 - similar to Ings, they have 2 inside forwards that attack the space vacated when the striker drops, similar to Bailey and Coutinho/Buendia, even Traore plays a similar style. Their midfield 3 is industrious, 1 who holds but they're all comfortable defending and getting back, Kamara, Luiz and McGinn/Sanson could play this system. Attacking full backs, check, and physical, quick CBs, Mings and Carlos fit the mould but Konsa is also suited now Carlos is injured. You could argue martinez is the one that doesn't suit the style as he's a defensive keeper rather than a sweeper. Sarr would also suit this inside forward role that they play, but he sets us up to be totally exposed. 1 holding mid and 2 mids that attack, alongside either 2 attacking 10s or a 10 and 2 strikers or a 10 and a winger and a striker, a high line with both full backs forward, the second we lose the ball we are completely vulnerable. On top of that Liverpool press press press, we stand off and let teams do what they want. Liverpool set up to have lots of passing options in the defensive third, to open space to hit their forwards line quickly. If there's space on the flanks they hit it for their inside forwards, if not they get the ball into the feet of their striker who then has options from the full backs wide or inside forwards attacking through the middle. We completely vacate the defensive third which leaves us no options but to hit and hope down the lines before the ball is on. The whole team bombs forwards and when we inevitably lose the ball as we've rushed it forward we're then left completely exposed. If we set up as a 433 and play Liverpool way we cannot play Ramsey and McGinn in midfield, they're too attacking and they kill our build up. 433 with kamara Luiz and probably Nakamba from our options, with Bailey and Coutinho flanking Ings and we'd be damn close to how Liverpool set up, obviously not on their level but we'd be defensively sound and have the forward line to cause problems. Then when the next transfer window rolls around we could incrementally upgrade players for those specific roles. Gerrard earns millions a year, surely he can see this?! I don't really get this part. That is a system issue, not player. They are obviously doing what he wants or they would be out. It's not like they have to attack just because they are attack minded players. If the attack too much it's because they are either instructed wrong, don't understand or don't give a shit. And given that they keep getting play time they must be doing what SG wants, roughly. It's not like they are genetically predisposed to only attack and hence break our system. The system is broken, and putting in player that is designated as defensive won't help. The system must change. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
picicata Posted August 21, 2022 Share Posted August 21, 2022 God I miss having wide players playing wide. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted August 21, 2022 Share Posted August 21, 2022 7 minutes ago, picicata said: God I miss having wide players playing wide. I'm right with you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daft Posted August 21, 2022 Share Posted August 21, 2022 The average position stats are usually derived from each players average co-ordinates from their events, so while it can provide some indication of overall shape, it does not include off the ball events and movement. Heatmaps are usually better for the actual shape in various phases of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted August 21, 2022 Share Posted August 21, 2022 11 hours ago, DCJonah said: Bailey..........buendia/coutinho...........Sarr ......................watkins/Ings...................... Is this not a top half attack? should be. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted August 21, 2022 Share Posted August 21, 2022 Valid points are being made on here about the tactics, and shape......but in addition the defenders ability to defend was woeful. Konza's attempt to close down Zaha and deny him a shot was woefully passive, no block, no tackle, no attempt to physically disrupt......just stood off. The third goal, Zaha played a reverse pass,around Cash , while Konza just crept up behind Zaha, with no attempt to challenge, no attempt get close, just a passive turning up for affect. Even the first goal, included a slight deflection in midfield to Zaha, where Konsa chaperoned him towards our goal.....its just a case we simply don't get close enough to opponents. to limit deflections or ricochets. This team must be the worst in the league at present. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CVByrne Posted August 21, 2022 Share Posted August 21, 2022 I really don't understand what formation we intend to play. We've two pacy wide forwards in Sarr / Bailey. We've three Centre Forwards in Watkins/Ings and Archer and we've two 10s in Coutinho and Buendia. We play ultra attacking full backs so need a 3 man Midfield to cover for them and with a CDM dropping a bit deeper we are easier to overrun in midfield. A move to a 4 2 3 1 with more conservative fullbacks and a double pivot in midfield makes the most sense for the squad of players we have. However we don't have enough steel to play alongside Kamara in that 2. It also means no real place for McGinn or Ramsey in that formation. So a 4 3 3 with conservative full backs and attacking 8s is an option. But you'd expect Buendia and Coutinho to not really feature in that team either. It's all very confusing. All that really matters is to fix the midfield you need two 6s in there and one 8. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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