Freedom for Tooting! And other similar nutty fringe communities

[chrisp65]

41 minutes ago, Marka Ragnos said:

Is the Nicola Sturgeon arrest a big topic over there? It's shocking to me. Still not clear on any actual criminal allegation apart from money missing from a "ring-fenced" campaign finance account, but that could all just be incompetent accounting, right?

Pure speculation on my part but this has to be more than just some error or incompetence.

If it was an accounting error after all this time and all this political damage, it could end that police force as an entity, so I’d expect there to be substance. Who knew what when, is anybody’s guess.

I’ve got a couple of close friends that have put time and money directly in to the SNP. I’m a little more cynical about politicians and political parties so I avoided the direct SNP donation and went with AUOB and YES campaigns. It’s not a huge difference, but it gives me a slight feeling of not being quite as directly mugged off by individual personalities. Not that we know any detail yet.

This is huge and could have kicked independence 10 years down the road. This puts the SNP in the same sordid bracket as the other two big parties. Politicians eh?

There was a huge rally for indie up there a couple of weeks ago, about three times the size of the one I posted just up thread. I saw no national coverage. So it’s already a bit stacked by the unionists. This kind of stuff really spectacularly doesn’t help.

[Demitri_C]

Sowe have scandals with the tories, labour mps getting suspended by their party, SNPs previous leader arrested. Only lib dems and the greens seem to be in the clear at the mo

The state of UK politics what a absolute shit show

[Marka Ragnos]

14 minutes ago, bickster said:

Nope, I'm more shocked it took this long. The shocking thing is that she wasn’t there long. It’s no longer shocking because it’s been rumbling in for a while since her husband got arrested.

Theres no such thing as incompetent accounting, especially at this level. Motor homes bought as a campaign battle bus that never saw battle and was stored on the mothers drive, is not incompetent accounting

Holy shit. I hadn't seen that sort of accusation anywhere. I reckoned there must have been some more well-defined thing. Meanwhile, here's the kind of vague story I'm seeing in some major papers here. See why I'm perplexed? It's just soooooooo generalised. You're saying it's a lot more than sloppy books.

 

Quote

 

Police launched the inquiry over complaints that the Scottish National Party may have misused more than 600,000 British pounds ($755,000) raised by activists campaigning for Scotland’s independence from the United Kingdom. The SNP, which is the largest political party in Scotland, has denied wrongdoing.

The party has “been fully cooperating with this investigation and will continue to do so,” Scottish media quoted an SNP spokesperson as saying.

“However, it is not appropriate to address any issues while that investigation is ongoing,” the spokesperson said.

 

 

 

[bickster]

It’s far easier not to comment than say “We have no idea why Sturgeon and her husband bought a motor home and stored it on his mothers drive, or where they got the money from, even though there are shitloads missing from the coffers…”

This all started because members of the party were questioning the membership numbers which were apparently much higher than reality. So numbers were high but income was lower than expected. There are even quotes out there from higher up members where they claim they were told not to talk about membership numbers because the press would make far too much out of it…. But….

The motor home was supposedly paid for out of money raised for a specific campaign (2nd referendum AKA Indyref 2 iirc) and was meant to be used for that and that alone.

Thats my understanding and it may be wrong. I don’t pay that much attention to it.

[chrisp65]

The membership numbers was a weird trap they set themselves, less money in the bank than there should be, whilst exaggerating membership numbers. Surely, eventually, someone was going to ask the obvious awkward question on basic maths.

[Demitri_C]

Whats the latest opinion polls in Scotland? Surely SNP are as unpopular as the tories after these scandals?

The one good thing hopefully the independence talk will die down now

[ml1dch]

10 minutes ago, Demitri_C said:

Whats the latest opinion polls in Scotland? Surely SNP are as unpopular as the tories after these scandalss

Nope, a drop - but only from around 50% to 40%. Tories from around 25% to 20% Labour up from around 15% to 30%.

[Amsterdam_Neil_D]

I didn't make the main video,  I just upgraded it a bit.

I admit to adding the masks and backgrounds to this,  oh and Rab.

[chrisp65]

 

 

 

[chrisp65]

 

 

[Demitri_C]

21 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

 

 

 

[NurembergVillan]

1 hour ago, chrisp65 said:

 

 

 

Subtly worded tweet, that.

52% would vote Yes to a referendum is different than 52% would vote Yes in a referendum.

[chrisp65]

33 minutes ago, NurembergVillan said:

Subtly worded tweet, that.

52% would vote Yes to a referendum is different than 52% would vote Yes in a referendum.

Its poorly worded, they’ve done themselves a disservice.

Data here: Redfield 

Quote

Notably, majorities of those aged 18 to 24 (53%) and 25 to 34 (52%) would vote ‘yes’ to independence, while majorities of those aged 35 to 44 (55%), 45 to 54 (66%), 55 to 64 (55%), and 65+ (70%) would vote ‘no’ in such a referendum. 

It’s interesting that the support for independence as a concept isn’t reflected in support for independence parties.

Indie vote generally is around 32%, support for Plaid is at 10%, which is quite damning of their ability to tap in to the mood. 

But all that is just nerd fodder, it’s the direction of travel, that’s the positive take.

 

Undod probably put it better and more simply…

 

 

Edited July 19, 2023 by chrisp65
Accuracy

[Cizzler]

On 19/07/2023 at 22:33, chrisp65 said:

Notably, majorities of those aged 18 to 24 (53%) and 25 to 34 (52%) would vote ‘yes’ to independence, while majorities of those aged 35 to 44 (55%), 45 to 54 (66%), 55 to 64 (55%), and 65+ (70%) would vote ‘no’ in such a referendum. 

What's the rationale/reasons why they want to leave? Do they believe they'd have a better quality of life outside of the Union?

I sort of get some of the Scottish independence argument - if they truly believe England is a resource-drain, harvesting Scotland's national resources (i.e. oil) with Scotland not seeing any benefit back. Not saying I subscribe to the view - but I can understand the thought process.

Both my parents are Welsh - so despite growing up in England, I've always considered myself 'British'. Welsh independence is a bit strange to me. It's a tiny country with minimal resources, really hard to see how they'd benefit from being alone.

[chrisp65]

4 hours ago, Cizzler said:

What's the rationale/reasons why they want to leave? Do they believe they'd have a better quality of life outside of the Union?

I sort of get some of the Scottish independence argument - if they truly believe England is a resource-drain, harvesting Scotland's national resources (i.e. oil) with Scotland not seeing any benefit back. Not saying I subscribe to the view - but I can understand the thought process.

Both my parents are Welsh - so despite growing up in England, I've always considered myself 'British'. Welsh independence is a bit strange to me. It's a tiny country with minimal resources, really hard to see how they'd benefit from being alone.

Without giving you a full on dissertation, I think the question is, can Wales afford not to be independent.

Tiny with minimal resources? For population, it would be ‘in the pack’ of European nations, certainly a greater population number than say, Malta, or Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Iceland. Just a little smaller than Croatia or Ireland. The Irish appear to be just about surviving without the soothing hand of Westminster to guide them. Judged on GDP, again Wales would be a mid ranking EU nation.

Malta was considered far too small and weak and lacking in resources not to be under British Control, but they insisted they wanted to give it a go, they’re still there. In fact no nation (and there are about 50 to date) has ever taken control away from Westminster and then later asked to be taken back under Westminster control. 

These minimal resources, Wales is a net exporter of energy yet has hardly tapped in to the renewables there for the taking. Water, it appears the south east of England needs more water and straight away, the idea is to flood another Welsh valley. Imagine if Wales could charge for water and electricity. Imagine if the seabed off Wales belong to Wales and not King Charles.

Ports, there are a couple of ports, from Cardiff, Newport, Holyhead, Pembroke etc. 

Yet somehow, with 3.5 million people, with natural resources, with ports and cities and universities, somehow we are consistently one of the poorest regions of europe.

I think its time we thanked Westminster for their efforts, and let them concentrate on England, we’ve taken more than enough of their time and money.

Absolutely none of the above is anti English btw, or anti Scottish or anti Northern Irish, just to state the obvious. 

Oh, and you’re not alone because you’re not governed from London. 

[Cizzler]

1 hour ago, chrisp65 said:

Oh, and you’re not alone because you’re not governed from London. 

So is the preference to be governed by Brussels instead?

To be honest, I’d welcome the dissertation. I’m not well-versed I’m this area at all and interested to hear why Wales “can’t afford not to be independent”

Not being confrontational, just interested.

Who does Wales export electricity and water to? England? If so, is that really an export? Surely the infrastructure has just been created in a way to service the entire country cost effectively (who funded the investment for the wind farms, etc). If Wales did secede, why would England continue to import water / electicity from Wales? Why wouldn’t they just build more of their own wind farms? Build their own reservoirs? Is it geographically impossible?

Is any of the access to renewables actually unique to Wales?

I agree there are ports, cities and universities in Wales… but there are in almost every country in the world. It’s not like the ports are in key trading locations, or the cities are tourism hot-spots or the universities consistently amongst the world’s best.

By what metric is Wales one of the poorest regions in Europe?

Brexit was so incredibly toxic and divisive, splitting from the Union would be on another level. 

[chrisp65]

1 minute ago, Cizzler said:

So is the preference to be governed by Brussels instead?

To be honest, I’d welcome the dissertation. I’m not well-versed I’m this area at all and interested to hear why Wales “can’t afford not to be independent”

Not being confrontational, just interested.

Who does Wales export electricity and water to? England? If so, is that really an export? Surely the infrastructure has just been created in a way to service the entire country cost effectively (who funded the investment for the wind farms, etc). If Wales did secede, why would England continue to import water / electicity from Wales? Why wouldn’t they just build more of their own wind farms? Build their own reservoirs? Is it geographically impossible?

Is any of the access to renewables actually unique to Wales?

I agree there are ports, cities and universities in Wales… but there are in almost every country in the world. It’s not like the ports are in key trading locations, or the cities are tourism hot-spots or the universities consistently amongst the world’s best.

By what metric is Wales one of the poorest regions in Europe?

Brexit was so incredibly toxic and divisive, splitting from the Union would be on another level. 

Whether you want to be part of the EU, and whether the EU would want Walesa as part of it is getting in to a level of detail of personal preference. I think many people have realised over the last few years that the freedom of Brexit has meant, we still have to comply with EU regs to sell to the EU. Where we now try to sell to other regions, we have to comply with their rules and regulations. So the myth of this brexit autonomy and self governance has been exposed. Someone somewhere will set your trading rules, your financial credibility on the open market. The UK is free of Brussels, but still ‘governed’ by all those international standard for trade and finance and credit.

Wales exports water to England. The funny thing being, we are not currently able to charge for it, in fact quite the opposite, we pay for the infrastructure in Wales that exports water we don’t get an income for. I guess if England wanted to, they could flood Yorkshire and Lancashire valleys but you’d have to ask why they don’t consider that an option at present? 

Access to renewables isn’t unique to Wales, although England appears to have a thing about land based wind turbines. Again, I guess you’d have to ask with nothing unique about Wales, why is it being used to extract resource for England instead of England? I guess you’d have to ask someone in Westminster.

The ONS will show you poverty levels in Wales, off the top of my head, 25% of Welsh kids are defined as in poverty by the ONS. Hundreds of years of natural resource of coal wealth, slate wealth, stone wealth, shipping and docking, water, wool, energy and yet 25% of kids are in poverty. Something has been terribly mis managed there.

Yes, brexit was toxic, why would a split need to be the same? Surely Westminster will have learned its lesson? Or do you think Westminster could act in bad faith out of spite? Would that be a good reason to stay?

What’s happened to Ireland since it left the UK? Its geographically removed from the rest of Europe, it had been ‘reliant’ on rule from London, it had no great infrastructure, didn’t have its own currency or central bank, its exports were either to England or for the benefit of England. You look at those circumstances, they’d be crazy to try and go it alone. When they split, the Welsh economy was greater than the Irish. Now, independent, the Irish economy dwarfs the Welsh one. 

Wale has been held back for a very long time, the way infrastructure projects work has required ‘bangs for your buck’ and as such, look at investment in public transport. Look at the infrastructure from electrified railways that runs from Paddington to Cardiff, and then stops, no electric for Swansea or Carmarthen, not worth it, London folks don’t go to Carmarthen. looks at HS2, closest it gets to Wales is Crewe, except that bit has been postponed. Yet £5 billion that could have been spent connecting Cardigan, Aberystwyth and the port of Fishguard has been allocated to… HS2. but that’s just one example.

The M4 motorway was 3 lanes..all the way from London to Bristol, then 2 lanes from then on. Stifling investment west of Bristol as the motorway is a pig.

The Cardiff airport wanted to set its own charges but couldn’t inc ask it took trade away from Bristol. 

There will be dozens of such examples, no one of them a definitive reason to leave. All of them can be debated.

In fact, let’s flip it, if Wales is such a poor prospect such a drain on London, why is London so keen to keep it? Is it a sense of caring for those that can’t look after themselves? 

A Wales that has to think and act for itself will be better for everyone.

[Cizzler]

42 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Whether you want to be part of the EU, and whether the EU would want Walesa as part of it is getting in to a level of detail of personal preference. I think many people have realised over the last few years that the freedom of Brexit has meant, we still have to comply with EU regs to sell to the EU. Where we now try to sell to other regions, we have to comply with their rules and regulations. So the myth of this brexit autonomy and self governance has been exposed. Someone somewhere will set your trading rules, your financial credibility on the open market. The UK is free of Brussels, but still ‘governed’ by all those international standard for trade and finance and credit.

I think EU membership is a given surely - as what other currency would be an option? There is a lot more than just the international trading rules to consider, if the EU would be setting Welsh monetary policy. 

52 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Wales exports water to England. The funny thing being, we are not currently able to charge for it, in fact quite the opposite, we pay for the infrastructure in Wales that exports water we don’t get an income for. I guess if England wanted to, they could flood Yorkshire and Lancashire valleys but you’d have to ask why they don’t consider that an option at present? 

I'd presume (with no knowledge) as the land is cheaper in Wales and it's geographically closer to London/South East. What do you mean by the Welsh pay? Aren't both English and Welsh water companies privatised anyway?

55 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

The ONS will show you poverty levels in Wales, off the top of my head, 25% of Welsh kids are defined as in poverty by the ONS. Hundreds of years of natural resource of coal wealth, slate wealth, stone wealth, shipping and docking, water, wool, energy and yet 25% of kids are in poverty. Something has been terribly mis managed there.

I'm not saying there hasn't been incredible mismanagement over the years - but public spending per head in Wales is 13% above UK average (£13.4k p/person) - would an independent Welsh government actually be able to spend more than that? 

57 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Yes, brexit was toxic, why would a split need to be the same? Surely Westminster will have learned its lesson? Or do you think Westminster could act in bad faith out of spite? Would that be a good reason to stay?

I wasn't really talking about Westminster. More how toxic Brexit was across the population, families and friends disagreeing, etc. It's an impossible debate. No one can agree on a definable metric for success.

1 hour ago, chrisp65 said:

What’s happened to Ireland since it left the UK? Its geographically removed from the rest of Europe, it had been ‘reliant’ on rule from London, it had no great infrastructure, didn’t have its own currency or central bank, its exports were either to England or for the benefit of England. You look at those circumstances, they’d be crazy to try and go it alone. When they split, the Welsh economy was greater than the Irish. Now, independent, the Irish economy dwarfs the Welsh one. 

 I don't think it's fair to use GDP when looking at the Irish economy as it is hugely skewed by American multinationals declaring their profits in Ireland.

[chrisp65]

58 minutes ago, Cizzler said:

I think EU membership is a given surely - as what other currency would be an option? There is a lot more than just the international trading rules to consider, if the EU would be setting Welsh monetary policy. 

I'd presume (with no knowledge) as the land is cheaper in Wales and it's geographically closer to London/South East. What do you mean by the Welsh pay? Aren't both English and Welsh water companies privatised anyway?

I'm not saying there hasn't been incredible mismanagement over the years - but public spending per head in Wales is 13% above UK average (£13.4k p/person) - would an independent Welsh government actually be able to spend more than that? 

I wasn't really talking about Westminster. More how toxic Brexit was across the population, families and friends disagreeing, etc. It's an impossible debate. No one can agree on a definable metric for success.

 I don't think it's fair to use GDP when looking at the Irish economy as it is hugely skewed by American multinationals declaring their profits in Ireland.

EU membership would be an advantage in that its such a huge wealthy trading block you’d have to be some sort of moron to not be involved, and who wants to be governed by morons?

Welsh Water is a not for profit organisation without share holders, its registered address is in Cardiff.

An independent Wales could arrange its own finance for what it believes important. Rather than the money for renting the sea bed for wind turbines going to King Charles it go be used in Wales. We could decide when there is or isn’t a magic money tree.

We can’t let the mismanagement of all aspects of the brexit scam stop all referenda and all major decisions in the future. Learn from it, don’t hide from it.

Don’t want to use Ireland, ok, Iceland, GDP per person for Iceland is (roughly) £53,000, in Wales its £25,000

 

But we can do stats all day, it’s whether you think your affairs are better dealt with by yourself, or by someone else. 

Wales will have 32 MP’s in Westminster at the next GE, 32 of 650. That’s a bit pointless really, having 4.9% of a say in a union of equals.

 

It’s a positive thing, making your own decisions, not a negative.

[sidcow]

I'm not convinced The EU would automatically let Wales (or Scotland) join. 

They've seen what an absolute shitfest the Northern Ireland hard border with the UK has become. 

I'm not sure there is enough on offer from Wales (or Scotland) for their benefit to make them take on that headache.