Mazrim Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 I find it absolutely astonishing that some of you are suggesting we should cut ties with one of the most talented youngsters in the country just because he hasn't come straight into the team and dominated from the off. In that case, Grealish, Ramsey, etc would all have been left to become top players somewhere else. Where's the patience and foresight? Man Utd let Pogba go, and even though he's a bellend, they ended up paying nearly 100m to get him back a few years later. Chelsea had similar issues with Lukaku, and what about De Bruyne and Salah? Lost both because they had no patience and foresight. How they'd like them both back now. 2 of the top 5 players in the world. And pardon me if I'd prefer to give Chuk the minutes to become what could be one of the best players in the league, at the cost of a player who will absolutely not, never will be, and has underperformed for the last 2 years at least. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomaszk Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 2 minutes ago, Mazrim said: I find it absolutely astonishing that some of you are suggesting we should cut ties with one of the most talented youngsters in the country just because he hasn't come straight into the team and dominated from the off. In that case, Grealish, Ramsey, etc would all have been left to become top players somewhere else. Where's the patience and foresight? Man Utd let Pogba go, and even though he's a bellend, they ended up paying nearly 100m to get him back a few years later. Chelsea had similar issues with Lukaku, and what about De Bruyne and Salah? Lost both because they had no patience and foresight. How they'd like them both back now. 2 of the top 5 players in the world. And pardon me if I'd prefer to give Chuk the minutes to become what could be one of the best players in the league, at the cost of a player who will absolutely not, never will be, and has underperformed for the last 2 years at least. What would you do if he refuses to sign a contract? I wouldn't have him in the squad I don't think. Doesn't make sense to develop him to leave on a free. If he signs one, happy days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
penguin Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 5 minutes ago, Mazrim said: I find it absolutely astonishing that some of you are suggesting we should cut ties with one of the most talented youngsters in the country just because he hasn't come straight into the team and dominated from the off. In that case, Grealish, Ramsey, etc would all have been left to become top players somewhere else. Where's the patience and foresight? Man Utd let Pogba go, and even though he's a bellend, they ended up paying nearly 100m to get him back a few years later. Chelsea had similar issues with Lukaku, and what about De Bruyne and Salah? Lost both because they had no patience and foresight. How they'd like them both back now. 2 of the top 5 players in the world. And pardon me if I'd prefer to give Chuk the minutes to become what could be one of the best players in the league, at the cost of a player who will absolutely not, never will be, and has underperformed for the last 2 years at least. I think it’s mostly rationalising due to all these rumours he won’t be signing a new contract, I bet this thread would be completely different if he signed a 5 year deal tomorrow. I have to admit I’m not particularly arsed either way, although clearly him leaving for free is far from ideal but there’s not a fat lot we can do if he wants to leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 3 minutes ago, penguin said: I think it’s mostly rationalising due to all these rumours he won’t be signing a new contract, I bet this thread would be completely different if he signed a 5 year deal tomorrow. I have to admit I’m not particularly arsed either way, although clearly him leaving for free is far from ideal but there’s not a fat lot we can do if he wants to leave. He wont be leaving for free though. We will still get money from a tribunal but be a lot less than if sell him now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazrim Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 3 minutes ago, Tomaszk said: What would you do if he refuses to sign a contract? I wouldn't have him in the squad I don't think. Doesn't make sense to develop him to leave on a free. If he signs one, happy days. That's a different matter. If he wont sign a new contract then we cannot invest time in him, although I hope part of that is not telling him he wont get into the team because of some average player in his way who has to start every game for some reason. But that's not the argument I'm hearing from some people, its that he's not good enough. We have to really try to keep him, even giving concessions to a bellend agent (unsavoury as that is) because he is special. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pete101 Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 It feels similar situation to angel gomes , I looked online and only article I could find said man u received 260k compensation , he was 19 when he left on a free , pretty much same as chuck, the longer this goes on the less likely he is staying, agents are more and more advising players to run down contracts , love the guy to stay but we will need to move on If he doesn't, I fully believe in the people behind making our deals at moment in our club and believe they will have moved heaven and earth to keep him but the ball is not in our court Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomaszk Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 15 minutes ago, Mazrim said: That's a different matter. If he wont sign a new contract then we cannot invest time in him, although I hope part of that is not telling him he wont get into the team because of some average player in his way who has to start every game for some reason. But that's not the argument I'm hearing from some people, its that he's not good enough. We have to really try to keep him, even giving concessions to a bellend agent (unsavoury as that is) because he is special. Not much helping people who will defiantly deny the obvious because it isn't what they want to hear. Agreed we should be paying over the odds if it secures a five year contract. In three years he'll be a £60m player. Sadly, this is feeling more like Doug where they just want to leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazrim Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 8 minutes ago, Tomaszk said: Not much helping people who will defiantly deny the obvious because it isn't what they want to hear. Agreed we should be paying over the odds if it secures a five year contract. In three years he'll be a £60m player. Sadly, this is feeling more like Doug where they just want to leave. Yeah, maybe. I hope not but if somebody has got in his ear its difficult. In our favour, we're the ones who have developed him and brought him through, and we're showing with Ramsey we will commit to players who prove their worth and they'll get their chance. Not in our favour is the examples of Dortmund etc who will take the best kids and give them elite football exposure. Maybe he thinks he can follow the likes of Bellingham, Sancho. He's definitely talented enough. We'll see. AT least Gerrard has the clout to be able to influence him, or at least you'd hope so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duke313 Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 54 minutes ago, Mazrim said: I find it absolutely astonishing that some of you are suggesting we should cut ties with one of the most talented youngsters in the country just because he hasn't come straight into the team and dominated from the off. In that case, Grealish, Ramsey, etc would all have been left to become top players somewhere else. Where's the patience and foresight? Man Utd let Pogba go, and even though he's a bellend, they ended up paying nearly 100m to get him back a few years later. Chelsea had similar issues with Lukaku, and what about De Bruyne and Salah? Lost both because they had no patience and foresight. How they'd like them both back now. 2 of the top 5 players in the world. And pardon me if I'd prefer to give Chuk the minutes to become what could be one of the best players in the league, at the cost of a player who will absolutely not, never will be, and has underperformed for the last 2 years at least. I think the only reason the majority of people are suggesting we cut ties with him is because he hasn't or won't sign a contract. no point in developing a player who is going to leave? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazrim Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 Just now, duke313 said: I think the only reason the majority of people are suggesting we cut ties with him is because he hasn't or won't sign a contract. no point in developing a player who is going to leave? I already agreed with that. There are those who think he isn't good enough. That's who or what I had issue with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyp102 Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 10 hours ago, skarroki said: We can't force them but we could do well to learn from the Chelsea approach to developing players - allbeit a more streamlined version of what they do now that they can't do that anymore - what with the rule changes. If the player is u21 you can loan out as many as you want Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duke313 Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 2 minutes ago, Mazrim said: I already agreed with that. There are those who think he isn't good enough. That's who or what I had issue with. They are definitely in the minority, nothing you can do about that. They'll change their tune if he signs a contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBlack Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 If he won't sign, I'd just use him like any other player intending to leave us for free at the end of the term. If they're the best option for a position, they can play in it (see Luiz playing as our 6 laat few months). If he will improve the team he should be playing. I don't think he improves the team at the moment so he'll presumably stay on the bench, with the odd appearance, whether he signs or not. If he can't motivate himself knowing he's got a move at the end of his contract, he won't be getting any game time anyway. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Mazrim said: I already agreed with that. There are those who think he isn't good enough. That's who or what I had issue with. I don’t think he’s good enough to be starting games. I personally think he got a lot of minutes last season and more than his performances warranted. So if his issue for signing a new contract is not enough minutes then I reckon there will be a problem. Edited June 21, 2022 by Vive_La_Villa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazrim Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 1 minute ago, Vive_La_Villa said: I don’t think he’s good enough to be starting games. I personally think he got a lot of minutes last season and more than his performances warranted. So if his issue for signing a new contract is not enough minutes then I reckon there will be a problem. Yeah, he has to earn starts. I would ask this one question though. Has our starting midfield been so good that he couldn't have expected more minutes than he's had? I'd have to say no, not at all. That's also true of Sanson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wainy316 Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 He's not currently one of the strongest options we have in midfield. The rationale of playing him at the moment is to develop him and help him reach his potential. If he's decided he doesn't want to be here long term then there's no reason or us to play him. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 3 minutes ago, Mazrim said: Yeah, he has to earn starts. I would ask this one question though. Has our starting midfield been so good that he couldn't have expected more minutes than he's had? I'd have to say no, not at all. That's also true of Sanson. It’s a tricky one. They haven’t been great at all but I think they’ve been better than him whenever he has had his chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mazrim Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 Just now, Wainy316 said: He's not currently one of the strongest options we have in midfield. The rationale of playing him at the moment is to develop him and help him reach his potential. If he's decided he doesn't want to be here long term then there's no reason or us to play him. Well, I'm not sure about him not being one of the best options for midfield. I know there are lots of fans who love him but I feel like McGinn has not earned the right to start and play 90 minutes of every game and I would argue Chuk has a much, much higher ceiling than McGinn. Could Gerrard have hauled McGinn (or to a lesser degree Ramsey) off in some games where he's been completely anonymous and threw him on? If you're Carney, watching that, and you believe in yourself as he must do, that's going to annoy you. Maybe its Catch 22. Chuk wants and needs more minutes, if he gets them, he'll stay. Gerrard didn't feel he earned them, but Chuk needs the minutes to prove it. Gerrard urges patience, the agent / Chuk's contract is running down and he might get the minutes elsewhere... I just hope he gets the right advice, and that is to stay, try and turn it on in preseason and get into Gerrard's thinking more seriously, then sign the damn contract. He has to have a realistic path to the first team starting position and he has to earn it. I agree with those that say he hasn't had enough starting time to prove he's going to get starts or more time at a big European club. Bellingham had those starts but Sancho didn't. So who knows? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wainy316 Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 16 minutes ago, Mazrim said: Well, I'm not sure about him not being one of the best options for midfield. I know there are lots of fans who love him but I feel like McGinn has not earned the right to start and play 90 minutes of every game and I would argue Chuk has a much, much higher ceiling than McGinn. Could Gerrard have hauled McGinn (or to a lesser degree Ramsey) off in some games where he's been completely anonymous and threw him on? If you're Carney, watching that, and you believe in yourself as he must do, that's going to annoy you. Maybe its Catch 22. Chuk wants and needs more minutes, if he gets them, he'll stay. Gerrard didn't feel he earned them, but Chuk needs the minutes to prove it. Gerrard urges patience, the agent / Chuk's contract is running down and he might get the minutes elsewhere... I just hope he gets the right advice, and that is to stay, try and turn it on in preseason and get into Gerrard's thinking more seriously, then sign the damn contract. He has to have a realistic path to the first team starting position and he has to earn it. I agree with those that say he hasn't had enough starting time to prove he's going to get starts or more time at a big European club. Bellingham had those starts but Sancho didn't. So who knows? On the two bold points: Yes but I don't feel he's more effective than McGinn currently and if he doesn't intend to realise that ceiling with us then we've no reason to play him. I do also feel that Gerrard has give him as many introductions of the bench as you'd expect for a talented 18 year old on the periphery. If the second point is true then give him minutes but some of the noises suggest that he may just want out (who knows for sure though) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
duke313 Posted June 21, 2022 Share Posted June 21, 2022 17 minutes ago, Mazrim said: Well, I'm not sure about him not being one of the best options for midfield. I know there are lots of fans who love him but I feel like McGinn has not earned the right to start and play 90 minutes of every game and I would argue Chuk has a much, much higher ceiling than McGinn. Could Gerrard have hauled McGinn (or to a lesser degree Ramsey) off in some games where he's been completely anonymous and threw him on? If you're Carney, watching that, and you believe in yourself as he must do, that's going to annoy you. Maybe its Catch 22. Chuk wants and needs more minutes, if he gets them, he'll stay. Gerrard didn't feel he earned them, but Chuk needs the minutes to prove it. Gerrard urges patience, the agent / Chuk's contract is running down and he might get the minutes elsewhere... I just hope he gets the right advice, and that is to stay, try and turn it on in preseason and get into Gerrard's thinking more seriously, then sign the damn contract. He has to have a realistic path to the first team starting position and he has to earn it. I agree with those that say he hasn't had enough starting time to prove he's going to get starts or more time at a big European club. Bellingham had those starts but Sancho didn't. So who knows? Gerrard is under pressure to get results, he isn't going to risk his job to give development minutes to Carney when we are loosing or chasing a game. If we had been in more winning positions and higher in the league, I think he would have played more than he already did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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