Generic Virus Thread

[Seat68]

3 minutes ago, mjmooney said:

Billy Bragg summed it up nicely in his latest FB post: 

 

I really should start following Billy Bragg on social media again. That's a very good read. 

[Davkaus]

I agree with all of that post from Bragg, but I went to his show at Rock City last week, and despite some other artists asking the venue to require proof of vaccination/a negative test, he'd done no such thing, so there were no checks.

I also noted the thunderous applause from a crowd of almost entirely unmasked fans, as he laid in to Johnson as an uncaring sociopath for not wearing a mask in Parliament.

Good show, but the hypocrisy left a sour taste.

[bickster]

8 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

Either way, what you're saying is that we should vaccinate children for you, not them. That changes the discussion completely for a parent, or at least it should.

Not me, everyone, society in general

 

[dont_do_it_doug.]

We've normalised state coercion and the left is just like "yeah that seems cool".

 

[blandy]

3 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

We've normalised state coercion and the left is just like "yeah that seems cool".

How are we being coerced? 

[bickster]

2 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

We've normalised state coercion and the left is just like "yeah that seems cool".

 

The left have always been the biggest proponents of state coercion, I'm not sure why you'd think otherwise. The left are all about control for the greater good, it's pretty much the absolute core of socialist philosophy

[dont_do_it_doug.]

1 minute ago, bickster said:

Not me, everyone, society in general

 

It may not even be the best thing for society to reduce controlled transmission at all. But most importantly if you're a parent, statistically it may not be wise to vaccinate for your perfectly healthy child who has more likely than not already been exposed to covid, perhaps multiple times.

Since when did we cut entire groups of people out of the conversation and disregard empathy for whatever is best for them? At the very least this should be a conversation because it isn't open and shut.

[dont_do_it_doug.]

5 minutes ago, blandy said:

How are we being coerced? 

If the threat of vaccine passports in order to access everyday activities that make life enjoyable isn't coercion, I clearly do not understand the meaning of the word. 

[JoshVilla]

7 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

We've normalised state coercion and the left is just like "yeah that seems cool".

 

I think this is sort of it for me.

I fully support the vaccine rollout, and think that annual boosters for the elderly and vulnerable are absolutely required. 

However, like I'd said a couple of pages ago, the mention of things like vaccine passports 12 months or so ago would usually be met with a response like "that's paranoid, conspiracy theorist nonsense. It'll never happen". Rightly or wrongly, here we are, and we've slowly been conditioned to accept it as being completely necessary. I worry where this could be heading. Is it any wonder that people are scared that they will never be given their freedoms back when we're currently experiencing potentially the worst, most corrupt government in decades?

[dont_do_it_doug.]

6 minutes ago, bickster said:

The left have always been the biggest proponents of state coercion, I'm not sure why you'd think otherwise. The left are all about control for the greater good, it's pretty much the absolute core of socialist philosophy

Which left? I hate to label individuals, I think they're a gross simplification, but I would say economically my politics are very much left wing. Probably to the left of Billy Bragg. I'm also a liberal. These two things can co-exist.

[blandy]

2 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

statistically it may not be wise to vaccinate for your perfectly healthy child who has more likely than not already been exposed to covid, perhaps multiple times.

“statistically it may be wise to vaccinate for your perfectly healthy child who has more likely than not already been exposed to covid, perhaps multiple times”.

And that’s the point. The science men have worked out it is wise, but not definitively so. Both paths are very low risk for the child. The vaccine path has the advantage of reducing the risk to others as well (including the parents and family).

[Genie]

13 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

I still think that kind of language is unhelpful. Maybe the people you are talking about are way beyond saving, but I tend towards thinking it's worth a bash.

I’ve tried and failed several times. These are the noisy social media types, when I or someone else pulls them up on some fake news they tend to double and triple down with even more anti-vax material. 

[bickster]

Just now, dont_do_it_doug. said:

Which left? I hate to label individuals, I think they're a gross simplification, but I would say economically my politics are very much left wing. Probably to the left of Billy Bragg. I'm also a liberal. These two things can co-exist.

I'd describe myself as similar but I'd also say I'm not left wing because socially I'm much more liberal than socialist and social politics are more important to me. You only have to view the actions of local Labour councils (of any flavour) to see that they are all about control, control, control. Economically and socially.

But this is totally getting away from virus discussion

[dont_do_it_doug.]

Just now, blandy said:

“statistically it may be wise to vaccinate for your perfectly healthy child who has more likely than not already been exposed to covid, perhaps multiple times”.

And that’s the point. The science men have worked out it is wise, but not definitively so. Both paths are very low risk for the child. The vaccine path has the advantage of reducing the risk to others as well (including the parents and family).

I think all you've done there is back up my point. As a parent, you are obliged to weigh up the evidence and ultimately make a decision which may, or may not, positively or adversely affect your child's life. 

It's not like you can actually go anywhere for balance advice these days either. You're not getting it from the government, the media, and anyone who makes life decisions based on social media should probably be culled regardless. People don't trust their GP anymore and if they're anything like mine, I don't blame them. It being a 'low risk' decision doesn't change the potential implications and we should have more empathy and sympathy for their situation.

[Amsterdam_Neil_D]

17 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

We've normalised state coercion and the left is just like "yeah that seems cool".

 

Maybe normal rules on what is and isn't normal don't apply during times like these ? (Wars / Disasters / Pandemics)

One persons coercion is equally another person being helped ?
 

[blandy]

4 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

If the threat of vaccine passports in order to access everyday activities that make life enjoyable isn't coercion, I clearly do not understand the meaning of the word. 

Ok ta. It’s not the word I’d use for that. I kind of take coercion to mean “threatening force if you don’t do…” - like violence/ imprisonment/ retribution etc.

I’d call asking people to show proof they are covid safe before accessing a venue well short of coercion, but I guess each sees things differently.

[Rodders]

13 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

If the threat of vaccine passports in order to access everyday activities that make life enjoyable isn't coercion, I clearly do not understand the meaning of the word. 

no it's a consequence. its how incentives and disincentives work. It's worked in pretty much every area of life from parenting to boardrooms in trying to encourage behaviours. Describing it as coercive is rather dramatic. Those who choose not to acquire passports or take negative tests aren't banned from life, just certain avenues restricted to them. It's standard everywhere, whether it's addressing bigotry, i.e. through consequences for offensive attitudes, or encouraging a child to behave better or whatever other example you can think of, it's just trying to influence social behaviours, just on a larger scale. 

 

Edited November 25, 2021 by Rodders

[dont_do_it_doug.]

1 minute ago, blandy said:

Ok ta. It’s not the word I’d use for that. I kind of take coercion to mean “threatening force if you don’t do…” - like violence/ imprisonment/ retribution etc.

I’d call asking people to show proof they are covid safe before accessing a venue well short of coercion, but I guess each sees things differently.

I'm not anti-LFT testing to access certain entertainment venues, for what it's worth, and I am very much pro-testing generally. I also don't have an issue with healthcare professionals requiring vaccinations, that seems perfectly sane and rational if you're going to be dealign with sick people. You kinda sign up for shit like that. I don't *think* vaccine passports as the only method of access will happen in England, but it has happened in Scotland and elsewhere in the world and I think it is a travesty against liberty. Whether that makes is coercion is semantics, I guess. Potato/potato.

[blandy]

2 minutes ago, dont_do_it_doug. said:

It's not like you can actually go anywhere for balance advice these days either. You're not getting it from the government, the media, and anyone who makes life decisions based on social media should probably be culled regardless. People don't trust their GP anymore and if they're anything like mine, I don't blame them. It being a 'low risk' decision doesn't change the potential implications and we should have more empathy and sympathy for their situation.

We’ve “had enough of experts”. You’re right about social media. And yes, around the choice for kids vaccinations we should be sympathetic and empathetic. Largely because either choice makes little difference for the kids.

[Jareth]

 I imagine we'd feel differently about kid vaccinations if a new variant should adversely affect them more than anyone older - but as it is, I'm definitely on the don't bother side of the debate - it has already swept through our school and my kids feel needles are worse than beheadings, cannot deal with the stress they'll emanate weeks ahead of their jab.