Recruitment

[Delphinho123]

I think we'll need 4/5 players to be in with a chance of promotion next season.
As things stand, I think you're looking at something like this:

----------------------------New----------------------------
New-------------------------------------------------New
-------------------------McGinn--------------------------
-----------------New---------------New-----------------
----------------------------------------------------------------
Targett--------New-----------Konsa------Guilbert
-----------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------------Heaton-------------------------

And that's if we keep McGinn. 

I don't want to see El Ghazi or Trezeguet in a Villa shirt ever again. Wesley, I'm still not sold on. Think he will struggle at championship level too. 

[The Fun Factory]

We will have to go back to the short term options of getting good young players on loan, and buying older players on 1-2 years for experience.

[The Fun Factory]

12 hours ago, Djemba_Villan said:

I personally think we should be tweaking not going for wholesale sackings.

Surely that's something we've learned as a club over the past 10+ years?

To learn we need to control the variables and see what works. Keep Purslow, tune the scouting, tune the coaching, keep the good young core of players and take good offers for dispensable players. 

We might get relegated yes...but when you consider all factors, and the pressure to bring people in at the start of the season it's not optimal. And not even slightly comparable to relatively stable PL teams eating PL money with solid systems requiring just 3-4 additions. We used to be a club like that!

We had the shortest time to buy with uncertainty until the Play Off Finals, We had a huge turnover of players & dependancy on loan players. We were certainly let down by targets. These people aren't morons, they wouldn't have planned to go into the season with Davis, Wesley and Kodjia. We were linked with selling Kodjiia all last season and Smith has gone on record saying we were let down by a target at the last minute. Could even have been Abraham - who knows!?

Everything I've heard from, and about Purslow is logical. Our approach to transfers hasn't been as scattergun as some people paint, that doesn't mean successful, but it's not an exact science. IMO, throwing the lot out and starting again would put us back if anything. We need to be learning and adapting. Football has changed a lot in 10 years.

That's far to sensible. I have a goat to scape. Burn them, burn them all.

[Tomaszk]

10 minutes ago, Mantis said:

Clearly recruitment was a huge issue, but I hope that doesn't deflect attention away from Smith.

Made a lot of mistakes, been a huge disappointment after early months when it looked like things were working.

Given no chance IMO due to the players being so bad.

I'd have no complaints about replacing him if there's a good option around, but I wouldn't sack him for not being able to turn these lot into Premier League players.

Gerhard Struber is a name I'm keeping an eye on.

[VillaFaninLondon]

12 hours ago, VillaChris said:

Just think we could've blown 20m on Butland aswell.

At least there was some sense there as Heaton is a much superior keeper for  2/3 less.

Crucial point of the season was him getting injured at Burnley as I think we'd have least ground out 1-2 clean sheets more with him in goal so dug out a draw and possibly even a win which would be very crucial now.

Totally agree with this. Heaton's injury screwed us. Nyland looks absolutely shocking, makes a mistake every game. The one against Wolves was an absolute howler. How the defence can focus with him behind them I don't know. Reina made some bad decisions before the lockdown at Southampton and Leicester but I'd stick with him to the end of the season, at least he has experience at this level. 

[VillaFaninLondon]

On 28/06/2020 at 09:01, BleedClaretAndBlue said:

£140m

I feel recruitment has been well below par, not just last summer but for many years, but this doesn't really tell a story. 

 

Examples:

• Liverpool signed Robertson from Hull who were not only relegated but had a shocking defence. The guy cost £8mil. He's probably worth 10 times that now and arguably one of the best left backs in the world.
• We signed McGinn for £2.5mil from a Scottish team who were not even Rangers or Celtic. Despite his recent form being poor, we can all agree that was money well spent and he's worth a lot more now.
• Southampton signed Van Dijk who had played for a pretty mediocre Dutch outfit called Groningen and then Celtic. The guy is now probably the best CB in the world. 
• Players like Courtois, Koulibaly, Carrasco and of course De Bruyne have been signed from Belgian clubs (mainly Genk who you call a midtable outfit). These players are now some of the best in the world. 
• Leicester signed Kante and Mahrez from pretty bad French teams, I believe Mahrez may have actually been playing in France's second division. These are probably the best signings in Leicester's history - you could also add Vardy to that list who came from Fleetwood Town.

 

I think what this tells us is that it doesn't matter where the player comes from. What matters is the quality of the scouting (are they technically, mentally and physically able to perform in the PL and can they get to a higher level?), how they are integrated into the team, and how well they are coached on arrival. What is clear is our recruitment really has to improve, it has been appalling for far too long, and our coaching of players is well below par too. We've had a mediocre academy for far too long as well, it's nowhere near the likes of Southampton or Man U or Chelsea who have consistently produced top talent. Even the Bluenoses seem to produce better players than we do.

Edited July 1, 2020 by VillaFaninLondon

[VillaFaninLondon]

 This is pretty sobering to read - net spend less than half of ours in last 5 years and we were a Championship side for over half that 

Edited July 1, 2020 by VillaFaninLondon

[Tomaszk]

7 minutes ago, VillaFaninLondon said:

 This is pretty sobering to read - net spend less than half of ours in last 5 years and we were a Championship side for over half that 

They were helped by some silly purchases from them. Coutinho who went to Barca for a fat sum and never played and Bournemouth buying half their youth team for about 50x their value.

But yes, well done them.

That's what happens when you have a good recruitment team.

Success is easy. Buy good players. Don't buy bad ones.

[Dale]

45 minutes ago, The Fun Factory said:

That's far to sensible. I have a goat to scape. Burn them, burn them all.

 

[Laughable Chimp]

17 hours ago, Zatman said:

El Ghazi came from 2nd in the French League at time of buying him

Wesley and Nakamba played Champions League

Engels played in the 4th best defence in France

Samatta played Champions League this season so not sure how Genk counts as a mid table team unless winning the league now means mid-table

Heaton played all of Burnley 2nd half of last season replacing Hart and changed the form

El Ghazi came from Lille's reserves, if the fact that Lille loaned him out didn't indicate that.

A lot of shit players also played in the Champions League. Playing in the Champions League by itself is not a standard of quality.

If Heaton was so integral, why the **** did they sell him so cheap and none of their fans seemed to mind one bit? I know he wanted to leave, but you'd think there'd be more uproar from the fans or he goes for a higher price if he was really that important.

Edited July 1, 2020 by Laughable Chimp

[Tomaszk]

Just now, Laughable Chimp said:

If Heaton was so integral, why the **** did they sell him so cheap and none of their fans seemed to mind one bit?

Because he was 33,  had a year left on his deal and he wasn't going to play much as they have a guy 10 years younger of similar ability.

Tom Heaton is a Burnley legend and a brilliant player. For 8m was possibly buy of the summer.

[Farlz]

What is it with this club and some sort of rebuild/sacking/general shit show every single summer? 

I'll give the new bloke in charge a couple years before he's sacked and so on. 

[villa4europe]

Liverpool's net spend is a bone of contention I have with some Liverpool fans I know that claim they've done it properly compared to the dirty money of city and chelsea

they've got a low net spend because they've sold £400m worth of players in the last 5 years including the mind blowing Coutinho figure, £80m for Suarez and then several should be investigated sales of players to Bournemouth and their 4th choice goalkeeper for £14m to Leicester, we simply aren't in that position, the majority of clubs aren't in that position, the reality is the squad that won the league cost just under £600m to assemble including at the time records for GK and CB and 10 players that cost more than our record transfer

the notion that they've done it without spending money is typical Liverpool bullshit

[Laughable Chimp]

5 minutes ago, villa4europe said:

Liverpool's net spend is a bone of contention I have with some Liverpool fans I know that claim they've done it properly compared to the dirty money of city and chelsea

they've got a low net spend because they've sold £400m worth of players in the last 5 years including the mind blowing Coutinho figure, £80m for Suarez and then several should be investigated sales of players to Bournemouth and their 4th choice goalkeeper for £14m to Leicester, we simply aren't in that position, the majority of clubs aren't in that position, the reality is the squad that won the league cost just under £600m to assemble including at the time records for GK and CB and 10 players that cost more than our record transfer

the notion that they've done it without spending money is typical Liverpool bullshit

I mean, isn't that the point of net spend? Yes they sold a lot of players, but selling 400m worth of players would indicate that their squad lost a lot of quality and they definitely did. Yet they were able to not only replace that quality, but improve upon it to the point they can win the PL and CL without spending relatively much compared to how much they sold.

We only need to look at ourselves to see how that can be impressive. Its not so easy to replace or improve upon the quality you've lost just by spending a lot of money.

Edited July 1, 2020 by Laughable Chimp

[useless]

El Ghazi played 27 league games the season before we signed him, so he was hardly a Lille reserve player, he still had a decent reputation then as well hadn't been long before that he was dong well for Ajax and being linked with a move to Liverpool, was quite a big signing for a championship club, but was overshadowed at the time by the Bolasie signing.

And Burnley fans were very disappointed about losing Heaton they credited him with saving their season last season when they when things were going bad until he returned to the side, apparently Joe Hart had it written in his contract that he had to be at least the No.2 choice so Burnley had to sell one of Heaton or Pope.

[Laughable Chimp]

3 minutes ago, useless said:

El Ghazi played 27 league games the season before we signed him, so he was hardly a Lille reserve player, he still had a decent reputation then as well hadn't been long before that he was dong well for Ajax and being linked with a move to Liverpool, was quite a big signing for a championship club, but was overshadowed at the time by the Bolasie signing.

And Burnley fans were very disappointed about losing Heaton they credited him with saving their season last season when they when things were going bad until he returned to the side, apparently Joe Hart had it written in his contract that he had to be at least the No.2 choice so Burnley had to sell one of Heaton or Pope.

Oh he was. And Lille finished 17th placed that season. That explains the bottom 6 french side comment.

[villa4europe]

20 minutes ago, Laughable Chimp said:

I mean, isn't that the point of net spend? Yes they sold a lot of players, but selling 400m worth of players would indicate that their squad lost a lot of quality and they definitely did. Yet they were able to not only replace that quality, but improve upon it to the point they can win the PL and CL without spending relatively much compared to how much they sold.

We only need to look at ourselves to see how that can be impressive. Its not so easy to replace or improve upon the quality you've lost just by spending a lot of money.

I wouldn't argue that they've scouted and spent money well and built a team perfect for klopps tactics, they should be applauded for it

but I do then disagree that makes them better then say peps city, I don't agree with the suggestion that they haven't spent money (which is what that tweet is doing) because they have, the fact that the money has come from player sales rather than the sponsors or the owners pocket is irrelevant for me, their player sales for the last 5 years are circa £450m, the player sales for those 4 other teams combined is £540m

liverpools net spend is being used to suggest little spending and they're 2 different things, they've spent £250m - 300m more than those 4 teams over the last 5 years, that's not better scouting or better spending or better squad building, its better selling of players which not every club is in a position to do, I doubt we could sell every player we've had on our books over the last 5 years for a combined £450m, its misleading as ****

[hippo]

2 hours ago, VillaFaninLondon said:

 This is pretty sobering to read - net spend less than half of ours in last 5 years and we were a Championship side for over half that 

It is from Anfield watch though. Most neutral calculations have Liverpool spending pretty close to Man City levels 

[VillaChris]

Liverpool just spent last few years signing relatively proven quality, probably one of the demands of Klopp before he agreed to join. Everyone knew about likes of Van Dijk and Mane from their good performances at Southampton although I didn't expect them to get to the heights they've reached in last 2 years. Alisson was one of best keepers in Serie A and Brazil number one, Salah was excellent for Fiorentina and Roma so pushed on after his aborted Chelsea career. Firmino was also a good player for Hoffenheim in Bundesliga although he took a year to settle in. Fabiano was excellent for Monaco when they made CL semis in 2017. Amazed Chelsea went for Bakayoko instead of him.

In 2014 Liverpool decided to replace Suarez by signing Mario Balotelli, Fabio Borini and Rickie Lambert. Also signed Lazar Markovic for over 30m that summer so that was an excellent example of very bad recruitment, interested where whoever wanted to sign those players is working now.

Having that core of senior/proven players then makes it much easier to get in guys like Andy Robertson and Joe Gomez which is more the type of signings we do but we don't have that established core at the club to help them fit into the team.

Edited July 1, 2020 by VillaChris

[VillaFaninLondon]

3 hours ago, Tomaszk said:

They were helped by some silly purchases from them. Coutinho who went to Barca for a fat sum and never played and Bournemouth buying half their youth team for about 50x their value.

But yes, well done them.

That's what happens when you have a good recruitment team.

Success is easy. Buy good players. Don't buy bad ones.

They've sold players for over inflated fees, of course. That is a skill in itself. Their Sporting Director Michael Edwards deserves a very big pat on the back and a huge bonus for getting relatively big money for dross like Ibe and Solanke. Coutinho was their star player but they made sure they fleeced Barcelona for every last penny they had - again very good work. 

 

We usually buy players at a premium but have very few examples of selling them on for profit. 

 

Success can be made to look very easy indeed. Unfortunately we make it look stupidly complicated by being an absolute shambles at buying and selling players.