MotoMkali Posted July 24, 2023 Share Posted July 24, 2023 6 hours ago, Keyblade said: Couldn't get much change out of PL CBs. He might need to play up top with someone if he ever starts league games you'd think, at least at first. I mean we never really created anything for him. It's not like they were too strong or quick for him. He sent lascelles to the floor twice and folded joelinton. Really the only opportunity was when he had a 1 on 1 vs lascelles but got tackled and you can't expect a player to win that every time. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marka Ragnos Posted July 24, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted July 24, 2023 (edited) 8 hours ago, lexicon said: Unpopular opinion, but if we could get 15m or so for him, I'd sell 100%. I feel the same, but feelings are just feelings. He did have the ball entirely under his control at times yesterday in decent spots, and my impression was that he just wasn't able to thread through defenders. I have this vision of him dribbling right up to centre backs and just sort of stopping in front of them. Just a hot take, take it however you will, but I was watching Philogene again and again on the ball outsmarting opponents trying to tackle him, so the bar was set high for me impression-wise. I don't have any agenda. I'm not anti-Archer. I just didn't see any magic. Maybe just a "slow day at the office." Which is fine. Preseason is pre. As a supporter, you make assessments based on the little bits of what you see and what you've learned, and it goes without saying, it's a very limited perspective. On the other hand, I can't pretend I didn't see what I saw. Edited July 24, 2023 by Marka Ragnos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xela Posted July 24, 2023 Share Posted July 24, 2023 Lets not judge him after a pre season run out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted July 24, 2023 Share Posted July 24, 2023 18 minutes ago, Marka Ragnos said: I feel the same, but feelings are just feelings. He did have the ball entirely under his control at times yesterday in decent spots, and my impression was that he just wasn't able to thread through defenders. I have this vision of him dribbling right up to centre backs and just sort of stopping in front of them. Just a hot take, take it however you will, but I was watching Philogene again and again on the ball outsmarting opponents trying to tackle him, so the bar was set high for me impression-wise. I don't have any agenda. I'm not anti-Archer. I just didn't see any magic. Maybe just a "slow day at the office." Which is fine. Preseason is pre. As a supporter, you make assessments based on the little bits of what you see and what you've learned, and it goes without saying, it's a very limited perspective. On the other hand, I can't pretend I didn't see what I saw. If you combined the two you'd have a top class player - but they're both missing areas of their game that would help their careers massively. With Archer, I'm not just going on preseason but rather what I've seen of him so far - I saw a few of his games last season too and he looked like he was at the right level. For some reason, I just don't see the ceiling required for him to take the step up he needs to. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sidcow Posted July 24, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted July 24, 2023 JJ should be a lesson for anyone judging him. I have a post somewhere on here saying about Jack Grealish that I can see there is a player in there somewhere but we just need to see it more often. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MellbergsBeard Posted July 25, 2023 Share Posted July 25, 2023 On 24/07/2023 at 10:22, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said: I'd like to see him, and a couple of the others get a chance with a full strength XI around them. I feel at times, it's a false narrative judging them after they get chucked on with a completely new reserve team mid match which will undoubtedly be disjointed and make them look worse. Think we could give a more fair assessment seeing them having the support and service of the proper team. I was just coming to post this. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thabucks Posted July 25, 2023 Share Posted July 25, 2023 On 24/07/2023 at 10:19, lexicon said: Unpopular opinion, but if we could get 15m or so for him, I'd sell 100%. No way we’d sell him for that low … Rhian Brewster cost £23.5 million after winning the Euros in 2017 … Archer is easily worth £30 mill + minimum . I too would sell him btw… 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted July 25, 2023 Share Posted July 25, 2023 6 minutes ago, thabucks said: No way we’d sell him for that low … Rhian Brewster cost £23.5 million after winning the Euros in 2017 … Archer is easily worth £30 mill + minimum . I too would sell him btw… No, he's not. Don't be silly. That would put him in Nicolas Jackson, Joao Pedro and Dejan Kulusevski territory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thabucks Posted July 25, 2023 Share Posted July 25, 2023 (edited) 10 minutes ago, lexicon said: No, he's not. Don't be silly. That would put him in Nicolas Jackson, Joao Pedro and Dejan Kulusevski territory. English tax premium … plus why would we sell him for less ? Gyokeres was just sold for £20.5 mill. Edited July 25, 2023 by thabucks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted July 25, 2023 Share Posted July 25, 2023 17 minutes ago, thabucks said: English tax premium … plus why would we sell him for less ? Gyokeres was just sold for £20.5 mill. And is a much more complete player who has done a lot more than Archer has at that level - that doesn't prove your point at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyp102 Posted July 25, 2023 Share Posted July 25, 2023 It’s such a hard situation for us and Archer. If we keep him, will he get the game time he needs to develop fully? Could we rely on him if Watkins gets injured? Loaning wise, we know he can do a job in championship so not sure it would be beneficial to loan there. But then who in the prem is going to give him game time? No promoted club could hinge their survival on an unproven prem striker, and everywhere else he would be back up so may as well stay at us. Could we get him a loan abroad? Monchi:Emery contacts in La liga? But then I’d struggle to name an English player who has ever been loaned to La Liga. Bundesliga could be an option, does anyone need a striker? Selling wise, who in prem would pay what we want? And championship very few could afford him, maybe Leicester/Southampton? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomaszk Posted July 25, 2023 Share Posted July 25, 2023 He'll get good chances this pre-season. It's not a secret his all-round play isn't quite that of Watkins yet. That's OK, time to work on that, it's though against PL defenders. What he does need to do, is keep scoring every time there's a whiff of goal. That isn't a common trait at all and he looks to have it. Up the arch. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted July 25, 2023 Share Posted July 25, 2023 (edited) On 09/07/2023 at 11:53, Kingman said: Nothing left to prove, He's completed 2 seasons in the Championship scoring numerous goals and plenty of assists Just needs to be given the Premiership opportunity and I'm sure he will take it I think his goal scoring is nailed down.....he just needs to be more industrious and consistent with his fist touch out side the box.....I think this will come with minutes in the first team. He just needs to be a bit involved more, looking for those through balls and capitalising on them....and working to get on the end of them. His shooting on goal is there IMO. Edited July 25, 2023 by TRO 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DJBOB Posted July 25, 2023 Share Posted July 25, 2023 Yeah I think he needs a chance this season. Replacement options are difficult to find and the market is tough right now. If Archer can see a lot of game times in cups, subs, and any other accumulated time - then he'll get his chances, especially against tired legs. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AntrimBlack Posted July 25, 2023 Share Posted July 25, 2023 He needs to start games with our better players around him to properly assess him. He is a striker. Other outfield positions, you can to some extent assess a player, but not a striker. He needs players around him who will provide chances for him. Then you can assess him better. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted July 25, 2023 Share Posted July 25, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, lexicon said: And is a much more complete player who has done a lot more than Archer has at that level - that doesn't prove your point at all. I am not arguing with the complete player reference, because I haven't watched Gyokeres enough, but just on stats alone its worth comparing. Gyokeres is 25 and in 110 games for Covenrtry in the Championship he has scored 41 goals.....thats a rate of 2.68 Archer is 21 and in 42 games in the championship he has scored 18 goals....thats a rate of 2.27 Now, I am not suggesting there is anything conclusive about that other than Cam is a decent finisher....but at 21, He still has much to learn about becoming a complete Forward. I think he has the hardest part nailed down....Its the build up and transition work he needs to improve on, but I am sure UE will be aware of that. At the end of the day, it will be UE's decision and he knows what the timeline, is, he has in mind, to get the work done. I would like to see Cam, stay with us.....but in UE I Trust. Edited July 25, 2023 by TRO 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinker Posted July 25, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted July 25, 2023 Reckon he will go out on loan if we get another forward in, if not then he has to stay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lexicon Posted July 25, 2023 Share Posted July 25, 2023 6 minutes ago, AntrimBlack said: He needs to start games with our better players around him to properly assess him. He is a striker. Other outfield positions, you can to some extent assess a player, but not a striker. He needs players around him who will provide chances for him. Then you can assess him better. It's a catch 22. We can't really afford to carry him and hope he ups his all-round game to the level required, but he's not necessarily going to develop a better all-round game unless he plays against premier league level defenders. Ideally, we'd loan him to Luton, Burnley or Sheff United this season to get that experience. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyp102 Posted July 25, 2023 Share Posted July 25, 2023 4 minutes ago, lexicon said: It's a catch 22. We can't really afford to carry him and hope he ups his all-round game to the level required, but he's not necessarily going to develop a better all-round game unless he plays against premier league level defenders. Ideally, we'd loan him to Luton, Burnley or Sheff United this season to get that experience. And therein lies the problem, I just can’t see teams like those mentioned gambling their premier survival on Archer being their main striker. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRO Posted July 25, 2023 Share Posted July 25, 2023 5 minutes ago, lexicon said: It's a catch 22. We can't really afford to carry him and hope he ups his all-round game to the level required, but he's not necessarily going to develop a better all-round game unless he plays against premier league level defenders. Ideally, we'd loan him to Luton, Burnley or Sheff United this season to get that experience. I think its a real Dilemma....But I feel uneasy, if he is not given a chance. just off the cuff....Ollie and JJ have been given "time" to fine tune their game and progress as individuals.....Its kind of ironic that as we are progressing, that "time" is not so easy to acquire. I might be wrong.....but I just feel, if we let him go, we might regret it. I don't think keeping him around the first team can hurt, because as far as sheer numbers are concerned, he has proved he can finish. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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