Follyfoot Posted June 12, 2020 VT Supporter Share Posted June 12, 2020 (edited) 8 minutes ago, choffer said: Either way, N.W.A. had it right. Even more so I think run DMC and Aerosmith had more of an answer. If They had done an album rather than one single our world would be different now Edited June 12, 2020 by Follyfoot 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 (edited) 11 minutes ago, Only2McInallys said: I remember the handsworth riots in 1981,broad water farm 1985 ?Lots of brilliant Television pictures and many people felt things were going to change did it achieve anything. ? If things get violent tomorrow and statues of Churchill are attacked I am sure some on here will be happy,I also think Tommy Robinson is going to be happy. BLM has achieved a lot of good Will and many people are examining their behaviour but violence and aggression is not going to encourage racial harmony. Most protest action, from marches to civil disobedience to riots, results in no change at all. You have highlighted examples of riots that achieved nothing, I can highlight examples of marches that achieved nothing as well. That's no surprise. What I find surprising, though, is questioning the *effectiveness* (as opposed to the morality or ideology) of the toppling of a statue last weekend. Given how little success almost all protest action has, that one act actually has had real perceivable consequences. Whether you agree with it or not, it was more effective than a peaceful march. Had a peaceful march taken place in Bristol last weekend, not only would we not have talked about slavery and the legacy of empire this week, but you and I wouldn't even know that the march had taken place. Edited June 12, 2020 by HanoiVillan 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Only2McInallys Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 3 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: Most protest action, from marches to civil disobedience to riots, results in no change at all. You have highlighted examples of riots that achieved nothing, I can highlight examples of marches that achieved nothing as well. That's no surprise. What I find surprising, though, is questioning the *effectiveness* (as opposed to the morality or ideology) of the toppling of a statue last weekend. Given how little success almost all protest action has, that one act actually has had real perceivable consequences. Whether you agree with it or not, it was more effective than a peaceful march. Had a peaceful march taken place in Bristol last weekend, not only would we not have talked about slavery and the legacy of empire this week, but you and I wouldn't even know that the march had taken place. Yes I agree that statue toppling did achieve something. Look at Northern Ireland the IRA waged war for 30 years over 6,000 people died and what did they get in 1997 ? An elected body ruled by Protestants .Ian Paisley was first minister.They could have had that in 1972.All the people that died in that conflict died for nothing. Violence ultimately doesn’t solve things it makes them more complicated to solve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vive_La_Villa Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 How do people feel change can be made in this country? More funding to deprived areas which have a large BAME population? More jobs being made available and a different selection process? Higher number of BAME people in management positions? These protests are great and respect to the solidarity with America after what happened. But in practical terms I do wonder what’s steps will be taken following this movement. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 10 minutes ago, Only2McInallys said: Yes I agree that statue toppling did achieve something. Look at Northern Ireland the IRA waged war for 30 years over 6,000 people died and what did they get in 1997 ? An elected body ruled by Protestants .Ian Paisley was first minister.They could have had that in 1972.All the people that died in that conflict died for nothing. Violence ultimately doesn’t solve things it makes them more complicated to solve. Well surely the counter argument to that would be Irish independence? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Only2McInallys Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 9 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Well surely the counter argument to that would be Irish independence? Good point. Although Parnell in the 1880s introduced Bills in the Houses of Parliament that would have given Ireland independence but through political manoeuvrings not unlike Brexit meant it never happened. So everyone knew it was going to happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wainy316 Posted June 12, 2020 Share Posted June 12, 2020 I love how South Park has come under no scrutiny. They are masters at evading censorship. Use the odious Eric Cartman as your vehicle and throw in the occasional poignant message and you can say pretty much anything you want. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 (edited) Out of order: Quote Conditions imposed on several groups intending to protest in London Today, Friday, 12 June, the Metropolitan Police Service imposed conditions upon several groups intending to protest in London on Saturday, 13 June. Numerous protest groups have advertised their intention to gather in central London on Saturday, 13 June 2020. They include, Black Lives Matter, right wing and left wing affiliated groups. Commander Bas Javid said: “I absolutely understand why people want to make their voices heard – there is a really strong depth of feeling out in the communities, but the Government direction is that we remain in a health pandemic and people are asked not to gather in large groups. By doing so, you are putting your own safety, and that of your family or friends at risk. We are asking you not to come to London, and let your voices be heard in other ways. “We all saw the crowds that came together last weekend, and the demonstration on the whole was peaceful and reinforced the legitimacy of feelings within our communities. “However on both days, there was a minority intent on disorder, which resulted in incidents of violence and criminal behaviour, and assaults against our officers. This cannot be tolerated. “As part of the ongoing policing operation ahead of tomorrow’s demonstrations, we continually monitor information available to us. Based on current information, and in order to keep those people safe who plan to come and protest, we have made the decision to impose conditions on the planned demonstrations tomorrow. “If you were planning to come to London, I again would urge you to reconsider, but if you are still intent, please familiarise yourself with what the conditions are. Please keep yourself safe by complying with government guidance on social distancing.” ...more Edited June 13, 2020 by snowychap Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 1 hour ago, Only2McInallys said: Yes I agree that statue toppling did achieve something. Look at Northern Ireland the IRA waged war for 30 years over 6,000 people died and what did they get in 1997 ? An elected body ruled by Protestants .Ian Paisley was first minister.They could have had that in 1972.All the people that died in that conflict died for nothing. Violence ultimately doesn’t solve things it makes them more complicated to solve. 1 hour ago, chrisp65 said: Well surely the counter argument to that would be Irish independence? Not only Irish independence, but that's a weirdly negative understanding of what republicans got out of the peace process as well. They gained a permanent involvement in government through power-sharing, the Irish government became more involved in decision-making relevant to Northern Ireland through the Good Friday Agreement, and connected but not in exactly 1997, they got a new police force that operated less like an occupying army. Those were not small wins! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Only2McInallys Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 8 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said: Not only Irish independence, but that's a weirdly negative understanding of what republicans got out of the peace process as well. They gained a permanent involvement in government through power-sharing, the Irish government became more involved in decision-making relevant to Northern Ireland through the Good Friday Agreement, and connected but not in exactly 1997, they got a new police force that operated less like an occupying army. Those were not small wins! All of those things could have been achieved without violence.In fact if anytthing the violence delayed the outcome. Most of the arguments were about disarming the IRA. The IRA war was for the reunification of Ireland that will never happen until a majority of people in Nortern Ireland want it.Its in the Good Friday Agreement and its what they would have been told in 1972. They were never going to win that war militarily.They were lucky they stopped when they did,I don’t think the US would supporting them much after the “war on terrorism” in 2001 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 3 hours ago, NurembergVillan said: I can't recall any racism in Only Fools. Did I miss it, was I oblivious to it? There was loads, but more stereotyping I guess than flat out racism. I’m pretty sure they’ve edited the more risqué bits out on the reruns Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bannedfromHandV Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 39 minutes ago, Wainy316 said: I love how South Park has come under no scrutiny. They are masters at evading censorship. Use the odious Eric Cartman as your vehicle and throw in the occasional poignant message and you can say pretty much anything you want. What scrutiny? South Park take the piss out of everyone and anyone, I don’t think there’s ever been a particular agenda . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HanoiVillan Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 8 minutes ago, Only2McInallys said: All of those things could have been achieved without violence.In fact if anytthing the violence delayed the outcome. I confess I'm not really following your argument here. I can't tell if you are referring to the Sunningdale Agreement or not (your previous post mentioned 1972, but Sunningdale was 1973 I think? And Sunningdale fell apart due to a loyalist strike?). I'm also wary of derailing the thread here. But I guess, in trying to keep it on topic to the topic of protest tactics, I just don't believe that both Irish independence and greater autonomy for Northern Ireland would or could have been achieved by 'peaceful dignified marches' or anything similar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wainy316 Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 54 minutes ago, bannedfromHandV said: What scrutiny? South Park take the piss out of everyone and anyone, I don’t think there’s ever been a particular agenda . I know they do but I’m talking from the current climate perspective of shows being pulled for having just 1 or 2 gags as being deemed as being racially insensitive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rendelc Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 BLM want to defund the Police . Good luck with that . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post bickster Posted June 13, 2020 Moderator Popular Post Share Posted June 13, 2020 21 minutes ago, rendelc said: BLM want to defund the Police . Good luck with that . ThE Tories have been doing it for years, why is it so contentious when black people want to do it? 6 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 (edited) Quote BRIGHTON, England — Tens of thousands of people protested in British cities in solidarity with those rising up against police brutality against black Americans in the past week. They highlighted similar injustices in Britain. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/12/opinion/edward-colston-statue-racism.html?action=click&module=Opinion&pgtype=Homepage Edited June 13, 2020 by maqroll Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted June 13, 2020 Author Share Posted June 13, 2020 7 hours ago, Wainy316 said: I love how South Park has come under no scrutiny. They are masters at evading censorship. Use the odious Eric Cartman as your vehicle and throw in the occasional poignant message and you can say pretty much anything you want. Thats a very good point. South park has to be one of the worst racist qnd offensive programmes out there. Wonder how long until American history x gets banned? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seat68 Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 3 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: Thats a very good point. South park has to be one of the worst racist qnd offensive programmes out there. Wonder how long until American history x gets banned? Its a film exploring racism. Its about racism. See also Mississippi Burning. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted June 13, 2020 Share Posted June 13, 2020 I think a lot of this stems from the fact that both America and the UK have had very little revision of our 'glorious' histories. Just like Belgians have a statue of one of the most genocidal maniacs in history, we also seem to be focusing far too much on how great we were in two world wars, and way too little on the fact that we developed internment camps, ravaged India, supported slavery and bombed the shit out of defenseless people since 1940. Our schools need to start attacking history in a more nuanced way so that we're not all offended when someone says that Churchill wasn't all that great at foreign policy and colonialism is essentially racism put in system. Revision is normal, the fact that some people have a problem with taking down a statue of Leopold II, Lee, Colston etc but celebrate when countries topples statues of Lenin shows how we've been fenced off from criticism and revision for essentially 70 years. Compare the numbers of killed between Churchill and Lenin and I think you'll find that neither is a that far off each other. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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