Dean Smith

[JAMAICAN-VILLAN]

7 minutes ago, kurtsimonw said:

They were a playoff team the year before he took over, he finished midtable 3 times. Whether their style improved is completely irrelevant if the results were worse.

I'd argue that the quality of the teams and players in the league has continually improved in that period.

Whilst they continually sold their best players to championship rivals (us included) every year since then, and remained stable.

So simply saying "results were worse" is a false narrative.

There is a ceiling to how much you can improve a team results wise whilst losing the better players who can create that "edge" to close the fine margins.

In essence he did a great job improving performances and cohesiveness of a squad which was partially dismantled every year.

To the point where they started earning the respect of most managers, and pundits, and were no longer seen as simply a "Dark Horse",.

They were very much tipped to make a proper promotion charge this year, then we took their Head Coach.

I get what you are trying to say but their are a multitude of variables here.

It's literally about the slant or bias an individual wants to put on it.

Edited October 27, 2018 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN

[Guest av1]

For those saying that Bruce inherited "a much worse" situation than Smith, here is Bruces team for his first game in charge. 

 

                          Gollini

Richards   Chester   Elphick   Cissokho

                   Jedinak    Tshibola

Adomah                                     Grealish 

                     Kodjia    RMC

 

Substitutes.

Bunn

Hutton

Baker

Bacuna

Gastede

Westwood

J Ayew. 

 

I simply do not see that as being "much weaker" than the current lot. 

Chester, Hutton, Adomah, Grealish and Kodjia still feature a lot, Gollini is probably a better keeper than Nyland, Ashley Westwood would be an upgrade on BB and Whelan, Baker would have been a better back up CB than Jedinak, and J Ayew would also be a good option to have. 

Bruce inherited the foundations of a decent team, he then signed a lot of shit and bored us to death for over 2yrs. 

Smith has inherited no better so should at least be given the same grace. 

 

 

 

[Mantis]

2 hours ago, TRO said:

and I sincerely hope you are right, that it is the slow progress to the holy grail and at present, I am struggling to see those slow wheels of the locomotive, gradually moving in to a full head of steam of which we all crave.

Notwithstanding, I still believe the improvement we debate , will come....you and many others are just a bit ahead of me, noticing it....the penny will drop I am sure.

come the revolution and we are flying....I will remember this .....and dully apologise for my oblivion.

However, just to add a bit of balance and not beat myself up too much after 2 away defeats......18 posters commented in the match thread that they felt those same defeats were unconvincing, so lets grab a little bit of perspective, hey.

With all due respect, I don't know how you can watch these performances and not see at least some improvement.

[Vive_La_Villa]

I and many others were feeling were quite down yesterday and emotional after the result. But since then it’s really refreshing to read how encouraged (me too) we are from a defeat. Win or lose under Bruce it wasn’t that often we actually played that well. It was always a job done, scraped a point or a deserve to lose.  Very rarely we were about to say what a great performance that was.

Yesterday had flaws but overall we really bossed that game. 

I’m confident the results will come.

[OutByEaster?]

3 hours ago, TRO said:

I don't deny your claim, but we didn't open up defences last night....If we did, I too would be pleased....I also agree good football is more likely to win matches, but that too is subjective, its in the eye of the beholder of what good is....but the proof of the pudding is in the eating....I accept that it's too early to be expecting results to change, but that does not stop us being ****** off that we lost.

I thought we did a decent job of opening up QPR last night, on another night we'd have had three goals - some of the finishing wasn't the best, but we made chances.

It's not just about football being "good" it's about having a pattern or a system that the players can fall back on, that becomes the on-pitch normal. In the playoff final for example, we weren't able to find the moments of individual brilliance that our system demanded to win the game, where Fulham's systematic approach stood up to the pressure of the big occasion better, the players were drilled - they could think less, the big game was less "different" to nay other. In the modern game, physicality has evened out, everyone is quick, everyone is fit and it's hard to have that as your advantage. Coaching has evolved to the point where a single brilliant individual will have to really be something to win games on their own.

Quote

I am making no apology for being a poor loser....I don't like losing.

Me either. I hate losing. Last night I saw signs that we can change it. I get that you didn't see those signs, but sometimes there's a lot of positives you can take from a defeat (and sometimes you can take a lot of negatives from a flukey win but it feels better) I saw positives in last night's performance.

Quote

I too agree we have a long way to go to make that improvement meaningful and that again was exactly my point without being critical of the new manager.

I think everyone does - I think some are seeing signs that we're underway at least. I think maybe this is where the wires cross - you've been here a while and what's always been true of you is that you see a game or a part of the club and you have an opinion on it, and that opinion is always genuine and honest - it's why people were surprised that you said you didn't see any positive difference in style or performance under the new manager. Never mind improvement, just difference. I think people saw your posts as deliberately refusing to see in order to find a way to criticise the new manager. I'm pretty sure that's not the case, as if you'd wanted to criticise the new manager, I know you would!

Quote

FWIW I think he will have difficulty in implementing his philosophies, until the defence is fixed, its dragging all the good work down.

And here's the thing; FWIW, I think he'll be able to implement his philosophies, and have us playing incisive, controlled, positive football but that results won't follow until the defence is fixed, it will drag all the good work down. What's more, I think there's a huge value in implementing those philosophies, even whilst results are poor. It's a subtle but important difference.

 

[OutByEaster?]

11 hours ago, TRO said:

Steve Bruce lost his job, because we were not winning enough games and languishing in the bottom half of the table.

I'm not sure that's true. I don't think it was results that ultimately lost Bruce his job - of course if we'd won every game in the season he'd still be the boss, a manager that wins every game can do what he likes,, but I think Bruce lost his job for two reasons - mainly because he was unable to secure a full squad in the summer; when that French defender went home to think about it and that left back drove down to London, Bruce was halfway finished, but also because there were no signs of development, we were a team with no identity, no underlying shape, a different back four every week, no structure, two and a half years and back to day one. I think both of those factors played a much larger part on his fate than results. 

I'm sure they both hate losing, but I don't think it was just losses that cost Bruce his job, anymore than I think last nights loss means that Smith hasn't begun his.

 

 

 

[Dave J]

20 minutes ago, Mantis said:

With all due respect, I don't know how you can watch these performances and not see at least some improvement.

Totally agree - Bruce has left us well and truly in the doo-doo, all he has achieved is to put together an imbalanced, expensive group of individuals who have no cohesion whatsoever. We have to allow Smith time to instill his methods and ethos into the team - however the reality and thanks again Bruce - is that we don't have that time now.

maybe I am looking at a half full glass but on another night we could have taken a point in both games - I don't think there was much between the 3 teams tbh. 

[VillaChris]

1 hour ago, Johnnyp said:

As Brentford how they feel about Smith leaving this evening .

Yep I thought they'd be top 6 this season after watching them play us and they were very strong at home early part of this season. 3 defeats since he left which suggests this behind the scenes structure everyone is banging on about isn't bulletproof if your manager isn't good enough.

One thing I would say is Dean Smith isn't a quick fix manager. His Walsall and Brentford sides really took 18 months to mould into his style. I will be judging him next season as I did when SB took over in 2016.

[hippo]

His Brentford finishing positions were 9th, 10th, and 9th

[VillaChris]

1 hour ago, av1 said:

For those saying that Bruce inherited "a much worse" situation than Smith, here is Bruces team for his first game in charge. 

 

                          Gollini

Richards   Chester   Elphick   Cissokho

                   Jedinak    Tshibola

Adomah                                     Grealish 

                     Kodjia    RMC

 

Substitutes.

Bunn

Hutton

Baker

Bacuna

Gastede

Westwood

J Ayew. 

 

I simply do not see that as being "much weaker" than the current lot. 

Chester, Hutton, Adomah, Grealish and Kodjia still feature a lot, Gollini is probably a better keeper than Nyland, Ashley Westwood would be an upgrade on BB and Whelan, Baker would have been a better back up CB than Jedinak, and J Ayew would also be a good option to have. 

Bruce inherited the foundations of a decent team, he then signed a lot of shit and bored us to death for over 2yrs. 

Smith has inherited no better so should at least be given the same grace. 

 

 

 

It's largely the same standard. On paper then an attack of Kodjia, McCormack, Ayew and Gestede look far too good for the league but it never clicked on the pitch just as it isn't now.

Our midfield and defence options that season were bog standard. We lost De Laet to a bad injury and had issues at FB just as we do now.

For a few weeks I've seen plenty of similar trends to 16/17. I think we'll finish in a similar position.

[Dave-R]

18 hours ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said:

Didn't take long for people to turn on each other hey?

Ive seen and ignored a couple posters in the past saying we need to temper our expectations, and it's true.

Ive accepted there is no quick fix and whilst being frustrated, I'm fully behind the plan and new regime.

I can actually see what we are trying to do, even if we are currently failing at it, I can see that the margins are getting finer.

It will take at least a couple of transfer windows to sort this out.

Our window for the quick bounce back promotion has past I feel, and its because of how terribly run we have been for years.

Its taken me a couple of years to accept it, but I finally have.

Looking forward to the journey, im convinced we'll be fine, however, it might not be this season unfortunately.

 

Exactly how I feel, last season was like yeah we mite get up, failed. Now this season is bruce failed and got too start again but this time do it properly under Smith.

I came to realise a while ago that until our players are taught a way to play and goofball is abolished at villa, then we won't be going anywhere out of this league back into the top flight.

I realise the day of throwing money at a situation are now over and I am glad (football can return to what it is) it's just a shame villa have fallen so far behind in this, but we have the remedy to the poison now.

Just look at Manchester United sitting mid table, fallen so far since money isn't doing the trick anymore like it did for them mid 90s and on, if the players are not playing, the tactics are not installed rite and the game plan isn't down then it isn't happening. As I said some days ago, teams that are still in the premier and how have been for like 15 years onwards are struggling to teams who have moved up from the championship. Yet the likes of man u have spent much more than these teams from our league, when I said villa were outdated I also mean other teams up in the top flight are too and there time will also come.

Football is again changing back to what it once was and players worth will really show by how they play on regular occasions.

We have all often said money has ruined our beautiful game, again look at how our team was used to cater to other team and we sold our talent for money (no more and I'm glad). Just look at how the championship clubs and below have fought the money issue problem, by updating the way they play, starting from scratch, tore up the rule book and basically devised new strategy of play that drive the most star filled money driven teams crazy because they can not cope.

If anything I really to admire the team in this league and below in how they have had no choice but too change, I admire them for doing what was needed to show the money driven teams that they are still here and we will out play you.

[Dave J]

9 hours ago, TRO said:

I think you are purposely trying to take my comments out of context Terry, because I fail to see your degree of improvement, in a very short space of time....arguably an unfair period of time.

My winning comment was a generalisation.....its what we should aim for.

Draws under the circumstances would have sufficed.

I was talking about the fullness of time, if the improvements do not equate to wins....yes , I don't see where that improvement take us.

In the first Instance, I go to games to see us win, if I can be entertained in the process, fine....I see that as a bonus.

I can count on one hand the games i enjoy when we lose....but that's me.

 

TRO - you surprise me, I have always considered you to have a deep knowledge of the game and therefore  I am a little surprised at your views thus far - I'm no tactical guru, just a layman in reality - but I can sense a change,  not something that is easy to quantify tbh, but something that is there nonetheless. DS needs time to sort out this mess - which I believe is worse than what Bruce inherited, will he get the time is another question altogether.

[Dave-R]

48 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

I and many others were feeling were quite down yesterday and emotional after the result. But since then it’s really refreshing to read how encouraged (me too) we are from a defeat. Win or lose under Bruce it wasn’t that often we actually played that well. It was always a job done, scraped a point or a deserve to lose.  Very rarely we were about to say what a great performance that was.

Yesterday had flaws but overall we really bossed that game. 

I’m confident the results will come.

I too am confident the results will come under Smith, we for once really did destroy the opponent in possession, passing and finding space, we just lacked the finishing.

All because of a blunder we lost that game, soon as the blunders stop that will be one problem sorted. 

I was loving the way we played but I too realise that our energy just isn't there to do it all game, I was thinking to myself I'm glad it's not me playing football like that all game, I would be dead after one game, it must be exhausting and to think brentford managed it but again they were built upto it like we will be, it will come in time.

The brentford lad in the interview was rite, that I would love this type of football but again glad I'm not playing it,, it is a next level of fitness that is.

 

[Vive_La_Villa]

7 minutes ago, Dave-R said:

I too am confident the results will come under Smith, we for once really did destroy the opponent in possession, passing and finding space, we just lacked the finishing.

All because of a blunder we lost that game, soon as the blunders stop that will be one problem sorted. 

I was loving the way we played but I too realise that our energy just isn't there to do it all game, I was thinking to myself I'm glad it's not me playing football like that all game, I would be dead after one game, it must be exhausting and to think brentford managed it but again they were built upto it like we will be, it will come in time.

The brentford lad in the interview was rite, that I would love this type of football but again glad I'm not playing it,, it is a next level of fitness that is.

 

Smith mentioned in an earlier interview that we need to regain energy levels whilst moving the ball around. Problem is when we try to move the ball around at the back the players and panic and kick it out or give it a way. 

[Dave-R]

16 minutes ago, Vive_La_Villa said:

Smith mentioned in an earlier interview that we need to regain energy levels whilst moving the ball around. Problem is when we try to move the ball around at the back the players and panic and kick it out or give it a way. 

I would love to know exactly what DS is doing with our players to bring there stamina/energy up because I don't think eating raisins and drinking monster energy drinks will do the trick.

Yes you are rite about moving the ball round the back at times we came so close to giving it a way very badly. I guess our accuracy also has to be sharp, every player has to be able to pass fast and accurate all while under loads of pressure.

Smith said that the way we will play a player has to get use to dragging two to three of the opposition with him. Our player with the ball should be making them run for the ball all while being out gunned and being able to navigate a pass securely through to one of our (what should be upto another two players), which is triangle football. Its not an easy thing to do it brings many skills into the game and teaches players many skills in how to deal with opponents on top of you all game.

If our players have the energy which I should imagine is a priority then the rest will follow.

One thing I really did notice with QPR is how many mistakes we were actually causing them to make, the pressure was brilliant and we took the ball of them alot. I would actually say apart from our blunder it was a game we deserved a point from if not all three..

Edited October 27, 2018 by Dave-R

[Dave J]

2 hours ago, hippo said:

His Brentford finishing positions were 9th, 10th, and 9th

Would you not consider this as a qualified success given his resources?

[hippo]

1 hour ago, Dave J said:

Would you not consider this as a qualified success given his resources?

I wasnt offering an opinion one way or the other

[Zatman]

3 hours ago, hippo said:

His Brentford finishing positions were 9th, 10th, and 9th

with Brentford. Brentford last played in top flight the season after World War 2 ended. 9th is 2nd highest league position they have had since

[Dave J]

7 hours ago, hippo said:

I wasnt offering an opinion one way or the other

Fair one

[Tommo_b]

12 hours ago, Dave-R said:

Exactly how I feel, last season was like yeah we mite get up, failed. Now this season is bruce failed and got too start again but this time do it properly under Smith.

I came to realise a while ago that until our players are taught a way to play and goofball is abolished at villa, then we won't be going anywhere out of this league back into the top flight.

I realise the day of throwing money at a situation are now over and I am glad (football can return to what it is) it's just a shame villa have fallen so far behind in this, but we have the remedy to the poison now.

Just look at Manchester United sitting mid table, fallen so far since money isn't doing the trick anymore like it did for them mid 90s and on, if the players are not playing, the tactics are not installed rite and the game plan isn't down then it isn't happening. As I said some days ago, teams that are still in the premier and how have been for like 15 years onwards are struggling to teams who have moved up from the championship. Yet the likes of man u have spent much more than these teams from our league, when I said villa were outdated I also mean other teams up in the top flight are too and there time will also come.

Football is again changing back to what it once was and players worth will really show by how they play on regular occasions.

We have all often said money has ruined our beautiful game, again look at how our team was used to cater to other team and we sold our talent for money (no more and I'm glad). Just look at how the championship clubs and below have fought the money issue problem, by updating the way they play, starting from scratch, tore up the rule book and basically devised new strategy of play that drive the most star filled money driven teams crazy because they can not cope.

If anything I really to admire the team in this league and below in how they have had no choice but too change, I admire them for doing what was needed to show the money driven teams that they are still here and we will out play you.

Think you’re jumping the gun there with the whole money no longer matters stance, or maybe it’s wishful thinking, but money is still king and it’s going to still be king for a long long time to come I’m afraid. 

Its nice to see smaller teams doing well, look at Brighton for example, properly run football club that is, however the top teams are always going to be the teams with the big money, always, and Man U are just having a blip of confidence and haven’t spent as much as say City or Liverpool.