Israel, Palestine and Iran

[OutByEaster?]

1 minute ago, magnkarl said:

I'm sorry but this line of reasoning doesn't float for me. You don't bomb a theater full of kids because you're fighting a country's military forces, you don't abduct 80k children, you don't mass rape, do what they did in Bucha, use ballistic missiles with fragmentation and cluster warheads on a city 500miles from the front line. Those aren't military actions, even if you think they are.

I'm not saying that. I'm saying that war is horrendous and with it come awful acts of cruel and indiscriminate barbarism, civilians targeted and so on - war is horrific, that's its nature, it's war.

Israel-Palestine isn't a war - it's a punishment.

[magnkarl]

3 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

I'm not saying that. I'm saying that war is horrendous and with it come awful acts of cruel and indiscriminate barbarism, civilians targeted and so on - war is horrific, that's its nature, it's war.

Israel-Palestine isn't a war - it's a punishment.

Hamas is the government of Gaza. The Al-Aqsa brigades are their military arm. Their military arm attacked another country. It's a war. Just like Ukraine fighting Wagner is a war.

The Syrian civil war is a fight between one state actor and several smaller groups. Do you also not call that a war?

Edited April 30 by magnkarl

[chrisp65]

53 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

Hamas is the government of Gaza. The Al-Aqsa brigades are their military arm. Their military arm attacked another country. It's a war. Just like Ukraine fighting Wagner is a war.

The Syrian civil war is a fight between one state actor and several smaller groups. Do you also not call that a war?

I think we have a broadly similar view of the whole thing, but we can’t refuse to recognise Palestine, refuse to recognise Hamas legitimacy (rightly so) AND class them as a country with a government. We can’t flip flop like that, it’s either a country and should be represented as such on the world stage, or its a refugee camp run by a terrorist organisation.

[bickster]

17 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

I think we have a broadly similar view of the whole thing, but we can’t refuse to recognise Palestine, refuse to recognise Hamas legitimacy (rightly so) AND class them as a country with a government. We can’t flip flop like that, it’s either a country and should be represented as such on the world stage, or its a refugee camp run by a terrorist organisation.

Wars do not have to be between countries

Edit: In fact there is another war ongoing not between non-nation states in Palestinian territory even today and that is the conflict between Hamas and Fatah that has been going in since 2007

[Panto_Villan]

10 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

I think we have a broadly similar view of the whole thing, but we can’t refuse to recognise Palestine, refuse to recognise Hamas legitimacy (rightly so) AND class them as a country with a government. We can’t flip flop like that, it’s either a country and should be represented as such on the world stage, or its a refugee camp run by a terrorist organisation.

Why would you say Hamas are not legitimate? They were democratically elected as the government of Gaza, and while they don’t hold elections there’s plenty of other autocratic governments elsewhere that don’t which are considered to be legitimate.

The question is whether Gaza is a country or just an occupied territory of Israel imo, not about whether Hamas are the government of it. Feels like that is a settled question already.

[Chindie]

9 minutes ago, bickster said:

Wars do not have to be between countries

Clausewitz doesn't like this.

[chrisp65]

10 minutes ago, bickster said:

Wars do not have to be between countries

Edit: In fact there is another war ongoing not between non-nation states in Palestinian territory even today and that is the conflict between Hamas and Fatah that has been going in since 2007

It was the reference to ‘another’ country, and ‘government’ when we don’t recognise either.

[chrisp65]

8 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said:

Why would you say Hamas are not legitimate? They were democratically elected as the government of Gaza, and while they don’t hold elections there’s plenty of other autocratic governments elsewhere that don’t which are considered to be legitimate.

The question is whether Gaza is a country or just an occupied territory of Israel imo, not about whether Hamas are the government of it. Feels like that is a settled question already.

It’s not me saying they aren’t legit, it’s our government that doesn’t recognise them. As it happens fwiw, I don’t think they have much of a claim to be legit either after 17 years without even the pretence of political process.

[Panto_Villan]

1 minute ago, chrisp65 said:

It’s not me saying they aren’t legit, it’s our government that doesn’t recognise them. As it happens fwiw, I don’t think they have much of a claim to be legit either after 17 years without even the pretence of political process.

Fair enough - that's because Palestine isn't recognised as a state, rather than because they're Hamas specifically, right? I don't think we recognise the Palestinian Authority either?

And yeah, obviously Hamas aren't an ideal partner for anything but there's plenty of governments we do recognise that don't bother with the political process in any meaningful way - China, Russia, Iran, many African nations, etc (I don't think holding sham elections confers any extra legitimacy). Unfortunately we'd struggle to engage with large swathes of the world if we only recognised democratic states.

[blandy]

41 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

it’s either a country and should be represented as such on the world stage, or its a refugee camp run by a terrorist organisation.

Not the way I see it. I think it should be recognised as a country, but you are describing the two extreme ends of a spectrum. When Palestine (or more specifically Gaza) isn’t launching rockets and suicide bombers at Israel and when Israel isn’t pulverising Gaza, it wasn’t “a refugee camp”, it was an impoverished and victimised place, but with rather more than just being a home for refugees. Refugee camps don’t have governments, military forces, international representatives and so on. Right now, it’s a decimated war zone, not even a refugee camp, sadly worse than that. But over the longer term it’s an almost nation, with oppressed people and, as you say, terrorists running it (with international sponsors).

[chrisp65]

9 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said:

Fair enough - that's because Palestine isn't recognised as a state, rather than because they're Hamas specifically, right? I don't think we recognise the Palestinian Authority either?

And yeah, obviously Hamas aren't an ideal partner for anything but there's plenty of governments we do recognise that don't bother with the political process in any meaningful way - China, Russia, Iran, many African nations, etc (I don't think holding sham elections confers any extra legitimacy). Unfortunately we'd struggle to engage with large swathes of the world if we only recognised democratic states.

Hamas are proscribed terrorist organisation in the U.K. including the political wing.

[Jareth]

3 hours ago, Panto_Villan said:

I mean, I agree with @magnkarl when he points out that there seems to be an awful lot of people who appear to have an incredibly narrow interest in war crimes - if Israel does them, they're constantly posting about how horrific it is, but they're nowhere to be found if war crimes are being committed elsewhere in the world (or by anyone else). The cynical part of me does wonder why that might be.

It's quite telling that almost everyone active in the Ukraine thread also posts in this thread, but the reverse isn't true - and often it's the people who are the most interested in condemning Israel who are missing.

(Obviously that doesn't necessarily make them wrong about Israel.)

I'm feeling that aimed this way - apologies if not. I can tell you I'd be in the Ukraine thread more than this one if the UK government were supporting, arming and defending Russia in their actions.  

[Panto_Villan]

@OutByEaster? Hmmm, I don't really understand how all the Russian war crimes in Ukraine are sad but ultimately just to be expected because there's a state of (unprovoked) war between those countries, whereas because Gaza is only a quasi-state suddenly things are far more tragic?

@Chindie You're not obliged to criticise Russia to be able to criticise Israel. But even in that post, you're saying Russia has "done bad things" whereas Israel is "destroying a people", which to me does seem like you're holding Israel to a higher standard?

For clarity, the point I'm making is this - it feels like in both of your responses you're outlining the belief that the Gaza conflict is uniquely bad. There are war crimes occuring elsewhere in the world too, and of course they are bad and you'd prefer they weren't happening, but Gaza is clearly the worst. Is that fair?

[Panto_Villan]

3 minutes ago, Jareth said:

I'm feeling that aimed this way - apologies if not. I can tell you I'd be in the Ukraine thread more than this one if the UK government were supporting, arming and defending Russia in their actions.  

Yes, you were one of the people this was aimed at. Yeah, I think that the UK being more complicit is a decent justification for being more active in this thread - although didn't you say you were Irish? Not that it matters hugely.

However, I remember you saying you were going to teach your kids about how evil Israel was, etc - so I think in quite a few of your posts you're saying or implying you think the Gaza conflict is uniquely bad among the bad things happening in the world. Again, is that a fair reflection of your views?

[magnkarl]

I do sometimes wonder - as I walk past the pro-Palestinian thugs in balaclavas wearing a uniquely Bedouin scarf screaming 'from the ri...' outside my granddaughters place of education every Friday afternoon - what would happen if Israel sent a missile with a fragmentation cluster warhead into a peaceful civilian group walking their dogs/jogging/walking/playing with their kids near a beach, when you consider in example that time when everyone was up in arms that Israel hit that parking lot outside a hospital and it then turned out to be Hamas\PIJ misfiring their water pipe rocket. I'll give it to them, they're great at stealing oxygen from conflicts that have far worse breaches of war crimes, genocide and breaches of humanitarian law in them. Everyone looks at Gaza and Israel while Vlad does as he pleases. 

Meanwhile I'll join the 20 odd people outside the Russian embassy to try to do the little I can to stop Russia trying to exterminate Ukrainians and several different peoples in Sudan\Darfur, and then I'll let the millions of people protest the conflict where one side attacked the other, one side went totally overboard, and the UN is using 90% of its resources on.

And then I wonder how much of this is whipped up online by Iranian\Russian bots as literally no one cares about Sudan or Myanmar.

Edited April 30 by magnkarl

[Jareth]

5 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said:

Yes, you were one of the people this was aimed at. Yeah, I think that the UK being more complicit is a decent justification for being more active in this thread - although didn't you say you were Irish? Not that it matters hugely.

However, I remember you saying you were going to teach your kids about how evil Israel was, etc - so I think in quite a few of your posts you're saying or implying you think the Gaza conflict is uniquely bad among the bad things happening in the world. Again, is that a fair reflection of your views?

A thread about Israel is probably an appropriate place to discuss dual passport holders! 

Yes, schools are struggling to answer questions on the Israel/Gaza conflict, to the point they avoid it - I don't blame them, it's very easy to be labelled antisemitic if you utter criticism of Israel. 

[Chindie]

30 minutes ago, Panto_Villan said:

@OutByEaster? Hmmm, I don't really understand how all the Russian war crimes in Ukraine are sad but ultimately just to be expected because there's a state of (unprovoked) war between those countries, whereas because Gaza is only a quasi-state suddenly things are far more tragic?

@Chindie You're not obliged to criticise Russia to be able to criticise Israel. But even in that post, you're saying Russia has "done bad things" whereas Israel is "destroying a people", which to me does seem like you're holding Israel to a higher standard?

For clarity, the point I'm making is this - it feels like in both of your responses you're outlining the belief that the Gaza conflict is uniquely bad. There are war crimes occuring elsewhere in the world too, and of course they are bad and you'd prefer they weren't happening, but Gaza is clearly the worst. Is that fair?

Reaching. 

In the same post I say Russia is eradicating cities. I'm not holding Israel to a higher standard. Don't mistake a darkly sardonic and chatty witty tone with somehow minimising ones actions against another. I don't seek to compare tragedies, just bleakly slice through the disingenuous obscuring and fogging of some commentators keen to laud Israel in a frank manner. 

I don't think Gaza is uniquely bad. I do think it's very bad, and that's hard to escape from. If you're going to take the third most densely populated urban area on earth, which is already struggling severely, in a situation where they are treated very badly and have legitimate and long running grievances, and then you decide to absolutely devastate it with heavy ordnance with no real care for casualties, including repeated attacks on aid facilities and things like hospitals... And you have politicians directing the bombing who are spouting rhetoric that encourages the destruction, and are (or reliant on the support of) those that wish to eradicate the entire population of their enemy, and when those politicians benefit from an unwavering support of my country and those even more powerful, making us all complicit in it... It's a grim situation I feel quite strongly about.

Edited April 30 by Chindie

[Panto_Villan]

Appreciate the replies - it's sometimes hard to understand what people's actual views are in discussions like this when you only get fragments in each post.

Edited April 30 by Panto_Villan

[Dante_Lockhart]

All these protestors need to piss off now. Half of them are only there because they have sheep sydrome and have no clue what they're protesting for.

[bobzy]

12 hours ago, magnkarl said:

I do sometimes wonder - as I walk past the pro-Palestinian thugs in balaclavas wearing a uniquely Bedouin scarf screaming 'from the ri...' outside my granddaughters place of education every Friday afternoon - what would happen if Israel sent a missile with a fragmentation cluster warhead into a peaceful civilian group walking their dogs/jogging/walking/playing with their kids near a beach, when you consider in example that time when everyone was up in arms that Israel hit that parking lot outside a hospital and it then turned out to be Hamas\PIJ misfiring their water pipe rocket. I'll give it to them, they're great at stealing oxygen from conflicts that have far worse breaches of war crimes, genocide and breaches of humanitarian law in them. Everyone looks at Gaza and Israel while Vlad does as he pleases. 

Meanwhile I'll join the 20 odd people outside the Russian embassy to try to do the little I can to stop Russia trying to exterminate Ukrainians and several different peoples in Sudan\Darfur, and then I'll let the millions of people protest the conflict where one side attacked the other, one side went totally overboard, and the UN is using 90% of its resources on.

And then I wonder how much of this is whipped up online by Iranian\Russian bots as literally no one cares about Sudan or Myanmar.

There's only so much coverage of wars that we receive/can stomach.

The Israel-Palestine conflict has been going on for so long, it barely gets discussed until flashpoints happen.  It's a similar thing with Russia, they attacked Ukraine for <reasons> and people largely condemned this but then there's a fatigue of discussing it for 2 years if not involved in the war.  I imagine the same thing will happen with this current war in Gaza.  In each instance, it largely seems that Russia and Israel are being far more aggressive/ruthless on civilian lives and so people (on here) broadly align with those being the more aggressive/"baddies".