Israel, Palestine and Iran

[blandy]

1 minute ago, Tumblerseven said:

I dont understand are we like pretending that people in here dont demonize israel? :DDD

No you don't. Neither of those demonises Israel. The first is a comment about the rest of the West (only) reacting once Israel killed those western aid workers and the other is about Hamas as I read it.

[chrisp65]

2 minutes ago, Tumblerseven said:

you said this too.

I dont understand are we like pretending that people in here dont demonize israel? :DDD

Yes, I said that too.

I’ve been critical of both sides, much more often of Netanyahu and the IDF as they have the overwhelming power advantage, and our government appears to be supporting them.

Criticism of something on the Israeli side does not mean support of terrorists. It is possible to see both sides as wrong. Which they are, both wrong.

 

[blandy]

1 minute ago, magnkarl said:

 

That isn't what you say -  the first line directly says @OutByEaster? agrees Russia is committing genocide. He's right too, about Russia seeing Ukrainians as Russian (like them) whereas Israel doesn't see Palestinians as Israeli (like them).

[magnkarl]

10 minutes ago, Tumblerseven said:

you said this too first random page.

I dont understand are we like pretending that people in here dont demonize israel? :DDD  Or your argument i said a few nice things so that means im fair? you cant be serious.

IDF and Israel's right wing leadership deserves demonisation. They've prosecuted war with Hamas and Hezbollah before without the massive civilian loss of life before, they could do it again.

That said I understand that it needed a bigger reaction this time after what happened Oct 7th. I just don't think they chose the right action. They could've played this the proper way - go to the UN, present their proof, get backing from the majority to go into Gaza with UN soldiers, apprehend the people in charge, blow up tunnels, bunkers, clean the area of weapons and put a spotlight on Hamas backers. That way they'd get a much bigger 'ok' to actually go hard against Hamas wherever Hamas was hiding. The indiscriminate bombing is just a bit too 1945 or Russia for most people's liking.

I just find the whole trampy non-critical support for either side asinine. Both sides here have 70 years of furthering these issues, and whenever there was a deal or agreement presented the extremists from both sides shut it down to make money and further the conflict.

Edited April 30 by magnkarl

[magnkarl]

7 minutes ago, blandy said:

That isn't what you say -  the first line directly says @OutByEaster? agrees Russia is committing genocide. He's right too, about Russia seeing Ukrainians as Russian (like them) whereas Israel doesn't see Palestinians as Israeli (like them).

Claiming that Russia doesn't want to eliminate Ukrainians when they've bombed more schools and hospitals in a week almost every week than Israel has for 6 months and saying that they don't have the intent, while calling what Israel does is a clear cut case of differing standards. Which is exactly what I was pointing at. Read some posts further down and you'll see a follow up as to why said poster only thinks Russia is committing war crimes.

Ergo Israel is held to a different standard. 

Edited April 30 by magnkarl

[blandy]

2 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

Claiming that Russia doesn't want to eliminate Ukrainians when they've bombed more schools and hospitals in a week almost every week than Israel has for 6 months and saying that they don't have the intent, while calling what Israel does is a clear cut case of differing standards. Which is exactly what I was pointing at.

Not for me. Discussing motivation (as different) while agreeing they've done genocide (like Israel has) is not a different standard. If I blow up a school because I hate all kids, or if I blow up a school because I think the people who own it have taken it from me, the motivation is different, the horror and crime is the same and utterly wrong on both examples.

[magnkarl]

1 minute ago, blandy said:

Not for me. Discussing motivation (as different) while agreeing they've done genocide (like Israel has) is not a different standard. If I blow up a school because I hate all kids, or if I blow up a school because I think the people who own it have taken it from me, the motivation is different, the horror and crime is the same and utterly wrong on both examples.

The crime isn't the same. Genocide is different to war crimes. I get the sentiment, and that is why I think so many people are arguing genocide.

If you think kidnapping 70k kids and wanting to wipe out a whole nationality and culture in Ukraine doesn't constitute genocide, then killing 35k people in Gaza isn't genocide either. Differing standards.

[Tumblerseven]

9 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

IDF and Israel's right wing leadership deserves demonisation. They've prosecuted war with Hamas and Hezbollah before without the massive civilian loss of life before, they could do it again.

That said I understand that it needed a bigger reaction this time after what happened Oct 7th. I just don't think they chose the right action. They could've played this the proper way - go to the UN, present their proof, get backing from the majority to go into Gaza with UN soldiers, apprehend the people in charge, blow up tunnels, bunkers, clean the area of weapons and put a spotlight on Hamas backers. That way they'd get a much bigger 'ok' to actually go hard against Hamas wherever Hamas was hiding. The indiscriminate bombing is just a bit too 1945 or Russia for most people's liking.

I just find the whole trampy non-critical support for either side asinine. Both sides here have 70 years of furthering these issues, and whenever there was a deal or agreement presented the extremists from both sides shut it down to make money and further the conflict.

Oh the indiscriminate bombing another buzzword. You dont even know what indiscriminate bombing looks like. Read about Dresden jesus christ.
You understand that it makes no sense? right? you must know this.
 

Most densely populated region in the world a strip.
3 month indiscriminate bombing campaign.
30k dead?
its not indiscriminate bombing by any standard! stop using these buzzwords they dont make any sense.

[blandy]

4 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

If you think kidnapping 70k kids and wanting to wipe out a whole nationality and culture in Ukraine doesn't constitute genocide, then killing 35k people in Gaza isn't genocide either. Differing standards.

Nobody and certainly not in the quoted post, says that. The very first thing is agreement it's genocide by Russia, and the same applies with Israel's actions.

[magnkarl]

6 minutes ago, Tumblerseven said:

Oh the indiscriminate bombing another buzzword. You dont even know what indiscriminate bombing looks like. Read about Dresden jesus christ.
You understand that it makes no sense? right? you must know this.
 

Most densely populated region in the world a strip.
3 month indiscriminate bombing campaign.
30k dead?
its not indiscriminate bombing by any standard! stop using these buzzwords they dont make any sense.

 

If it quacks like a duck.

That said, Dresden and Hamburg would be classed as genocide today.

Edited April 30 by magnkarl

[Tumblerseven]

1 minute ago, magnkarl said:

 

If it quacks like a duck.

oh my god a picture. guys it looks like dresden it must be indiscriminate bombing. you cant be serious. please go read how airforce works and how bombing are decided.

Edited April 30 by Tumblerseven

[Chindie]

Money in the meter in Tel Aviv again. 

Let's say... Distasteful.

[Panto_Villan]

I mean, I agree with @magnkarl when he points out that there seems to be an awful lot of people who appear to have an incredibly narrow interest in war crimes - if Israel does them, they're constantly posting about how horrific it is, but they're nowhere to be found if war crimes are being committed elsewhere in the world (or by anyone else). The cynical part of me does wonder why that might be.

It's quite telling that almost everyone active in the Ukraine thread also posts in this thread, but the reverse isn't true - and often it's the people who are the most interested in condemning Israel who are missing.

(Obviously that doesn't necessarily make them wrong about Israel.)

[OutByEaster?]

I think for me, that difference is in the nature of the conflicts - Russia-Ukraine is a war, an aggressor nation is attempting to take territory from another nation and the two military forces of those nations are squared off against each other - enormous damage and loss of life is an horrific by product of that.

Israel-Palestine isn't a war, it's a punishment for a shocking terrorist attack - the deaths and the horrors in both events are appalling, but the nature of the two things is different.

 

[Chindie]

If I'm one of those people, very simple - I've been interested in this conflict for a very long time, and even studied it as part of my degree, the same isn't true of Russia/Ukraine outside of a basic interest in conflicts and the politics thereof, so I don't post about it that often as I don't follow it massively closely. I pop up every now and then when I can add something of interest, or just to chuck in one of my pet nuggets of knowledge that is relevent.

If condemning Israel is, for some reason, only acceptable if you give them some cover by saying other people are bad too - sure, Russia done does bad stuff as well. It doesn't provide a shield for Israel in saying so, and it's not some evidence of holding Israel to higher standards if one isn't queing up to condemn every other bad actor in the world. Russia eradicating cities too doesn't mitigate Israel flattening Gaza and splattering kids at a rate of knots, or justify being really, really, really good at killing aid workers.

The conflicts are also clearly not the same, even if similarities can be drawn in more abstract concepts.

But of course all of this is fog to distract from the evidence slapping you in the face - Israel is destroying a people.

[blandy]

8 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

I think for me, that difference is in the nature of the conflicts - Russia-Ukraine is a war, an aggressor nation is attempting to take territory from another nation and the two military forces of those nations are squared off against each other - enormous damage and loss of life is an horrific by product of that.

Israel-Palestine isn't a war, it's a punishment for a shocking terrorist attack - the deaths and the horrors in both events are appalling, but the nature of the two things is different.

 

I have 2 comments on that. Firstly Russia is more than “accidentally” killing civilians, they too have deliberately targeted them and killed them, but more relevantly what we’re not seeing, but which is happening is that Hamas are actively continuing to hold hostages, to fight Israel in all forms and so on, it’s just that Israel is largely able to restrict media coverage of what is happening on the ground - there’s very little information getting out of the area because of lack of media, of lack of internet and phone signals and so on, which obviously to some extent hides Israel’s crimes, but also those of Hamas.

[chrisp65]

8 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

I think for me, that difference is in the nature of the conflicts - Russia-Ukraine is a war, an aggressor nation is attempting to take territory from another nation and the two military forces of those nations are squared off against each other - enormous damage and loss of life is an horrific by product of that.

Israel-Palestine isn't a war, it's a punishment for a shocking terrorist attack - the deaths and the horrors in both events are appalling, but the nature of the two things is different.

 

 

There should be some catchy phrase that best describes the collective punishment of the civilian population.

We have terrorism, for what Hamas did, I guess we have war crime for what Israel is doing.

Not everyone is going to like that, it’s a bit one sided, apparently.

[Chindie]

State terrorism.

[magnkarl]

For me the big difference between Russia and Israel is that Hamas started this (again), and are (were) the elected government of Gaza. In fact  they still hold a majority in support. Ukraine didn't attack Russia, it never did. Yet Russia has been doing in my opinion far worse things than Israel. Flattened cities with 100k+ inahbitants, bombed theaters with KIDS written on the roof, abducted and kidnapped 80k children, backbound, shot and dumped mayors, ex soldiers, policemen and other members they thought were 'pro Ukranian' into mass graves. Raped women by the 10s of thousands. 

One is an aggressor attacking another country completely unprovoked, while the other is a reaction to a massive terrorist attack. There's a big difference. That said I'd love to see both Benny and Vlad in the Hague, but that won't happen. I'll settle for Benny being put in prison for his corruption so there's peace to investigate, and for Vladimir to keel over once he's completely trashed everything in Russia to keep this stupid war going. Russia's just used fragmentation based cluster munitions on a boardwalk in Russia, for me he's on the same level as AH. 

Edited April 30 by magnkarl

[magnkarl]

34 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

I think for me, that difference is in the nature of the conflicts - Russia-Ukraine is a war, an aggressor nation is attempting to take territory from another nation and the two military forces of those nations are squared off against each other - enormous damage and loss of life is an horrific by product of that.

Israel-Palestine isn't a war, it's a punishment for a shocking terrorist attack - the deaths and the horrors in both events are appalling, but the nature of the two things is different.

 

I'm sorry but this line of reasoning doesn't float for me. You don't bomb a theater full of kids because you're fighting a country's military forces, you don't abduct 80k children, you don't mass rape, do what they did in Bucha, use ballistic missiles with fragmentation and cluster warheads on a city 500miles from the front line. Those aren't military actions, even if you think they are.

The missiles Russia use to bomb Ukraine can hit a target within 100 meters. Why people keep trotting out the theory that people dying to the same missiles 50.000 meters from the front line in hospitals and schools is somehow a byproduct of military action is beyond me. It isn't, and underlines the feelings I have about standards.

Russia gets a 500 mile leeway for their bombs, while Israel is supposed to hit a needle in a haystack in the most densely populated area in the world.

Edited April 30 by magnkarl