Israel, Palestine and Iran

[magnkarl]

9 hours ago, OutByEaster? said:

Reuters has:

https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/israeli-military-take-control-vital-rafah-crossing-gaza-into-egypt-2024-05-07/

 

Again, Kerem Shalom which the post alluded to isn't Rafah. The Kerem Shalom crossing was shut when Hamas bombed it the other day.

And if you read the proposed deal it again only includes part of the hostages, whereby Hamas will keep the majority of them for several more months for leverage in what they call 'steps'. They won't even hand over the dead hostages due to the likely backlash this will bring, so they will come last. It isn't a deal that any Western nation would take off any terrorist organisation and looks designed to keep giving Hamas leverage in a situation they created for themselves.

Edited May 8 by magnkarl

[OutByEaster?]

1 hour ago, magnkarl said:

It isn't a deal that any Western nation would take off any terrorist organisation and looks designed to keep giving Hamas leverage in a situation they created for themselves.

That's one way of looking at it I guess.

Not the way that the rest of the world is, but one way I suppose.

 

 

[Panto_Villan]

Seems like a deal might be possible (especially now the US has started withholding weapons), and would be in the interests of both parties - but there’s clear avenues for both sides to sabotage the deal.

The deal would be popular in Israel except for with the right-wingers that prop up Netanyahu’s government, so would he go for a deal even if Hamas offer something reasonable?

Hamas could also sabotage the deal to make Israel look bad by including clauses Israel will never agree to; their proposed deal includes terms like allowing them to release dead hostages instead of live ones (which is clearly a non-starter). So it’s difficult to know if they’re actually serious either.

[magnkarl]

11 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

That's one way of looking at it I guess.

Not the way that the rest of the world is, but one way I suppose.

 

 

What is the rest of the world thinking about Hamas' proposed deal?

A deal that holds dead hostages in the same regard as live ones clearly isn't serious. I don't know why you think it is something new.

'Here, have your dead mutilated citizens while we keep mutilating the others for a while, but you have to stop fighting us!'. Pressure needs to be put on Hamas and Israel to come up with proper terms, not terms designed to prolong the conflict. Hamas' 'input' to the new deal is nothing short of idiocy. I don't know why Egypt and Qatar is cow-towing to their ridiculous demands.

The point about keeping Hamas responsible seems to be slipping further and further away, but we're now 7 months in and a terrorist organisation is still keeping people hostage, yet the people who support Palestine seem to struggle with placing pressure on 'their' side to do what is right regarding clear breaches of the rules of war because Israel.

Edited May 8 by magnkarl

[OutByEaster?]

2 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

What is the rest of the world thinking about Hamas' proposed deal?

There's a general condemnation of Israel's refusal to engage with it by first pausing its military actions - a feeling that this is a legitimate approach to finding a negotiated solution that ends the killing.

The international position, generally being repeated in the media is that Israel should immediately stop blocking aid, stop bombing the last remaining kettled civilian outpost in Gaza and sit down and talk about a deal originally proposed by the US and moved in Israels direction by it's peers in order to bring an end to the slaughter. When the US stops sending you the bombs it's already budgeted because it doesn't want you dropping them on kids, it should be some sort of wake up call.

Israel isn't interested in ending this conflict, I remain unconvinced it's interested in the hostages, it's interest is in destroying its pesky neighbour and it's not listening to the international condemnation or any proposed solution suggested by the international community.

There are posts in this thread over the last couple of days that read like "I wouldn't have to keep hitting her if she just learned to cook sausages properly".

[magnkarl]

13 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

There's a general condemnation of Israel's refusal to engage with it by first pausing its military actions - a feeling that this is a legitimate approach to finding a negotiated solution that ends the killing.

The international position, generally being repeated in the media is that Israel should immediately stop blocking aid, stop bombing the last remaining kettled civilian outpost in Gaza and sit down and talk about a deal originally proposed by the US and moved in Israels direction by it's peers in order to bring an end to the slaughter. When the US stops sending you the bombs it's already budgeted because it doesn't want you dropping them on kids, it should be some sort of wake up call.

Israel isn't interested in ending this conflict, I remain unconvinced it's interested in the hostages, it's interest is in destroying its pesky neighbour and it's not listening to the international condemnation or any proposed solution suggested by the international community.

There are posts in this thread over the last couple of days that read like "I wouldn't have to keep hitting her if she just learned to cook sausages properly".

Calling a terrorist organisation that killed 1200 people in October 'pesky', took people hostage and went on a general rampage sort of underscores the issue I guess. That's before you mention the first and second intifadas.

Comparing domestic abuse with an organisation funded by a priesthood who suppresses their population to the point of public execution who has continually attacked for 20 years, steals aid, bombs, makes rockets out of water pipes and generally behaves like animals, isn't my cup of tea. It's possible to hold two thoughts at once. One won't stop without the other, yet responsibility in this case is only applied to one side to the point of it becoming a mantra.

The Israeli electorate cares a lot about the hostages. There's massive protests every day. Minimising that is a way of comforting ones innate bias I guess. Israel bad, Palestinians good.

The way the Palestinians are kept in a state of infantile unaccountability by their supporters emboldens their most extreme wings, they're just being 'pesky'. Never mind history, terror, bombs and attacks across a wide range of nations.

Edited May 8 by magnkarl

[OutByEaster?]

5 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

It's possible to hold two thoughts at once. One won't stop without the other, yet responsibility in this case is only applied to one side to the point of it becoming a mantra.

Maybe read that a few times.

Quote

Comparing domestic abuse with an organisation funded by a priesthood who suppresses their population to the point of public execution who has continually attacked for 20 years, steals aid, bombs, makes rockets out of water pipes and generally behaves like animals, isn't my cup of tea.

It's easy for extremists to gain a foothold in a community that's blockaded from medicine, food and supplies for years - when their neighbour suppresses them to the point of execution there should be an expectation of resistance - if you treat people like animals, they'll end up making rockets out of water pipes. 

I'm not comparing the murder of 15,000 children to domestic abuse, I'm comparing the persistent and deliberate overlooking of that horrific situation by those that say "It's their own fault because there are terrorists in there" to the way in which abusers everywhere look to blame their victims when they're incapable of looking themselves in the eye.

We need a ceasefire, last years attacks were horrendous, this years even more so, it needs to stop, and the first step toward that is that the people who are currently responsible for it continuing need to stop - that's Israel, by just about any measure, that's Israel - there's a deal on the table that the international community think has a chance of working - Israel needs to stop killing people while they work through it.

[magnkarl]

11 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

It's easy for extremists to gain a foothold in a community that's blockaded from medicine, food and supplies for years - when their neighbour suppresses them to the point of execution there should be an expectation of resistance - if you treat people like animals, they'll end up making rockets out of water pipes. 

Okay, so let's entertain this thought for a while.

How's that working out in Lebanon where Palestinians have founded a large scale Islamic militia, sent foreign fighters to Syria to loot, kill and commit wide-scale terror on civilians? What about the Lebanese civil war, the attacks on Jordan, terror in Egypt, the Olympics? 

How about that time when Egypt controlled Gaza and there was wide scale violence, or when Israel left Gaza only for it to implode into electing Hamas who then went on to cleanse Gaza of opposition. How is it working out in the WB where gay people are dragged through the streets behind motorbikes, PIJ recruits people en masse and aid is stolen to enrich the politicians at the top?

I agree there needs to be a ceasefire and Israel needs to stop killing people, but to achieve said ceasefire Hamas needs to stop firing rockets from civilian areas, holding people hostage and Hezbollah to stop launching rockets at Israel, just as much as Israel needs to stop bombing. It isn't a one way street, you seem to think it is.

As pro-Palestinians often like to say, 'the conflict didn't start on Oct 7th'. It really didn't. For either side. Yet one side is perennially kept in a state of child-like fantasies about having no blame for anything, they know not what they do, it's all Israel's fault.

Edited May 8 by magnkarl

[OutByEaster?]

What about what about what about

[magnkarl]

27 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

What about what about what about

Strange that, isn't it - that there has two be two sides to a negotiation on a ceasefire. One day shoot some rockets at an aid-transit point, next day, complain about its closure. Next day, deny handing over hostages, complain when the side that said that this is a red line doesn't accept those terms. It must be that the Israelis don't care about hostages. Meanwhile there's massive protests in Tel-Aviv to bring back the hostages and sign a cease-fire. How do you suppose both those things happen when Hamas doesn't want to let go of all the hostages?

Palestine good but somewhat pesky, Israel bad. No room for nuance. At least it must feel great not to have to think about why things happen, and instead just spend all energy on the reaction to things one were very much in control of perpetrating oneself. Both sides need to be held accountable in order to solve this, yet as per usual Palestinians and their organisations aren't.

Edited May 8 by magnkarl

[blandy]

1 hour ago, magnkarl said:

Both sides need to be held accountable in order to solve this, yet as per usual Palestinians and their organisations aren't.

The "both sides" is only the Israeli Government on one hand, and Hamas on the other. We can't hold the Palestinian people in any way "accountable" for the plight they're suffering, any more than we can the Israeli hostages for their plight.

[magnkarl]

40 minutes ago, blandy said:

The "both sides" is only the Israeli Government on one hand, and Hamas on the other. We can't hold the Palestinian people in any way "accountable" for the plight they're suffering, any more than we can the Israeli hostages for their plight.

I don't think I agree anymore. I think the loud minority right wing idiots who prop up Benny's government are accountable, just as I think the people who still support Hamas in Palestine\WB are accountable. If they lost their support this would be over in a moment on both sides.

In Israel that number is about 15% of the population.

Quote

Only 15% of Israelis want Netanyahu to keep job after Gaza war, poll finds

While in Gaza the number who support Hamas, even after being confronted with what they did, is (or was when the poll got taken) 57%, and 82% in WB.

Quote

Despite the devastation, 57% of respondents in Gaza and 82% in the West Bank believe Hamas was correct in launching the October attack, the poll indicated.

Of course we need to hold people accountable when they elect idiots. Like we are trying to do with Israel. I just don't see the same currents in the people who support the Palestinian cause. Which is why I think one side shows much greater support for extremists than the other, as they're almost never held accountable for anything by the wider world.

Seems to me like Hamas has all reason in the world to keep this going, they can savagely brutalise their own population, extort, kill and rape neighbouring populations, and still hold a majority in their own now completely leveled area. Again, I'm back at the point I was trying to make about the infantilisation of the Palestinian people and cause. Is there anything they can do to make their millions of supporters think for a second that part of the problem might be them?

The West has given so much aid to Gaza and the WB, if someone dared to say to the recipients of said aid that they need to consider their leaders I'm sure we'd get a different government there, the same thing the US is currently doing to Israel. 

Edited May 8 by magnkarl

[Panto_Villan]

23 minutes ago, blandy said:

The "both sides" is only the Israeli Government on one hand, and Hamas on the other. We can't hold the Palestinian people in any way "accountable" for the plight they're suffering, any more than we can the Israeli hostages for their plight.

Yeah, I tend to agree with @magnkarl that governments don't exist in a vacuum. There's plenty of people here who seem to be holding Israel as a country responsible for their actions, not just the government figures - because Israeli society is complicit in what's happening now to some degree due to the fact they elected Netanyahu in the first place. The same is true for the Palestinian people - I'm sure many just want a peaceful life, but clearly there's also a lot who are very happy to see Israelis get massacred and would be willing to support Hamas in doing so.

[Mandy Lifeboats]

20 minutes ago, blandy said:

We can't hold the Palestinian people in any way "accountable" for the plight they're suffering, any more than we can the Israeli hostages for their plight.

But we can reiterate that Hamas is an openly racist, sexist, homophobic government which was voted for by the majority of Palestinians. They were well aware of their racist, sexist and homophobic views and their ambition to wage war against Israel because Hamas put it all in writing.  

Electing a government that wants to commit genocide against a much stronger neighbour with nuclear weapons is an odd choice.  No more odd than electing a scruffy Etonian who promised to stop nasty coloured people buying the house next door.  Nor electing a TV star with funny hair who promised to make America great again by building a big wall.  But its still odd. 

 

 

[Mandy Lifeboats]

9 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

I I think the loud minority right wing idiots who prop up Benny's government are accountable, just as I think the people who still support Hamas in Palestine\WB are accountable. If they lost their support this would be over in a moment on both sides.

Bravo sir.  Bravo.  

  

[Jareth]

23 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

I don't think I agree anymore. I think the loud minority right wing idiots who prop up Benny's government are accountable, just as I think the people who still support Hamas in Palestine\WB are accountable. If they lost their support this would be over in a moment on both sides.

In Israel that number is about 15% of the population.

While in Gaza the number who support Hamas, even after being confronted with what they did, is (or was when the poll got taken) 57%, and 82% in WB.

Are we saying 15% of Oct 7th victims are accountable for their fate? They would broadly represent 15% of the population of Israel no?

[magnkarl]

4 minutes ago, Jareth said:

Are we saying 15% of Oct 7th victims are accountable for their fate? They would broadly represent 15% of the population of Israel no?

I think you know the answer to that, what a weird question. Is 57% of Gaza's population at fault for Israel's reaction to Hamas? There's a massive difference between accountability for electing someone and carrying blame for their later actions.

Edited May 8 by magnkarl

[Jareth]

1 minute ago, magnkarl said:

I think you know the answer to that, what a weird question. Is 57% of Gaza's population at fault for Israel's reaction to Hamas?

Fine - just checking. 

[Mandy Lifeboats]

4 minutes ago, Jareth said:

Are we saying 15% of Oct 7th victims are accountable for their fate? They would broadly represent 15% of the population of Israel no?

No.  I don't think any of them voted for a government that promised to get them killed. 

However a large proportion of the Palestinian population DID vote for a government that wanted war with Israel.  They got what they voted for. 

Let's stop the idea that the Palestinian people are all innocent victims.  They are not.  A lot of Palestinians wanted this conflict and provoked it.  Just like a lot of Israelis wanted this conflict and provoked it.  Painting one side as predominately right whilst the other is predominately wrong is ridiculous. 

I would like to see a march through London where the protesters wave both flags, remember all the victims and call on those responsible on both sides to be held accountable. 

But instead we have a one sided debate where Israels are the bad guys and Palestinians are the down-trodded victims. 

 

[Jareth]

6 minutes ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

No.  I don't think any of them voted for a government that promised to get them killed. 

However a large proportion of the Palestinian population DID vote for a government that wanted war with Israel.  They got what they voted for. 

Let's stop the idea that the Palestinian people are all innocent victims.  They are not.  A lot of Palestinians wanted this conflict and provoked it.  Just like a lot of Israelis wanted this conflict and provoked it.  Painting one side as predominately right whilst the other is predominately wrong is ridiculous. 

I would like to see a march through London where the protesters wave both flags, remember all the victims and call on those responsible on both sides to be held accountable. 

But instead we have a one sided debate where Israels are the bad guys and Palestinians are the down-trodded victims. 

 

I think it's difficult to call for equality of reaction from neutrals, when one set of victims are labelled true victims, whilst the other set, about x30 more of them, asked for it.