Panto_Villan Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 2 hours ago, OutByEaster? said: I'd go both sides - but I"m not sure it's a very direct comparison. If the IRA were to launch an attack on Belfast, killing several hundred people, and in response the UK government were to bomb then demolish most of Dublin and blockade the Republic of Ireland to the point of starvation, destroying any infrastructure and killing tens of thousands, would you say that the two groups responsible were the British and the Irish? In both cases, there aren't really two sides, because one of the sides is a small group within a wider population - that wider population might well sympathise with the small group at some level, but there's a lot of different ways they might do that, some will agree with the idea in principle of a united Ireland (or an independent free Palestine), some would want to play an active part in campaigning for that politically, or vote for those that will, some would want to do whatever they can to smuggle in food and medicine or work in the interests of the people they live around and some would be in favour of joining an armed struggle - but those groups are incredibly disparate - the biggest problem with the Israeli response to Palestine is that they make no effort, either by accident or design, to distinguish between those levels of support or indeed the existence of different types of desire for freedom/safety/security - they just get in and clear everything out. It's like having a schoolkid bully your child and you as a parent and professional special forces agent burning down the school with every child but yours inside it - of course, you can make a case for the school itself being a part of the problem, but the argument that both sides are responsible, the bully for being a bully, and the parent for burning down a school full of kids is, whilst factually correct, morally empty. In your example both the British and the IRA would be responsible. If there was an elected Sinn Fein government who had ordered and planned the attacks, you could replace "IRA" with "Irish" there. I'm not really sure I see the distinctions you're drawing though - when you criticise Israel, you're criticising the country as a single unit and not saying only the right-wing Israelis that elected Netanhyu are evil, or the settler movement. Why then draw that distinction for the Palestinians? Hamas were democratically elected to lead Gaza in a fair election, on an anti-Israel platform, and the terror attacks were directly ordered by their leadership. The actions of Hamas are arguably almost as representative of Gaza as the IDF actions are of Israel (the difference being that Hamas won that election a while ago), and they certainly didn't draw any distinctions based on the political views of the Israelis they encountered on Oct 7th. As for your last point - yes, if a very minor action (bullying) causes a ludicrously over the top response like in your school example (murdering hundreds of children), it's pretty clearly only the fault of the person burning down the school. But that's not the case in Gaza. While I agree that the Israeli response is disproportionate, Hamas still massacred over a thousand people. It wasn't some trivial event that sparked this. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panto_Villan Posted April 29 Share Posted April 29 8 minutes ago, magnkarl said: All perfectly fine. By that account it is also perfectly reasonable to point at the things Palestinian organisations are doing. People aren’t. They’re whitewashing everything Palestine and furthering the conflict by not holding the Palestinians accountable for anything. It is not like Israel is the only country who have had its share of issues from the group of people millions are protesting for every weekend. If you can plan and enact the largest terrorist act since 9/11 you can also be held responsible for the appalling state of your government, corruption, stealing of aid and terrible treatment of anyone not male and Muslim. Terrorism has consequences, and Israel is by far not the only country who has gone totally overboard dealing with it. There are obvious things that the Pro-Palestinian organisations don’t want to talk about. Hostages, terror, fundamentalism, killing of opposition, gay people, minorities, stealing aid and water pipes to make rockets. +++. It can’t all be Israel’s fault, it’s been happening since 1948, aimed at not just Israel, but Germany, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, Christians, Kurds, Turkmen +++. I agree that the Palestinians should be held to account for their behaviour too, and I've criticised their organisations many times in this thread. It's perfectly reasonable for you to point those things out, but you might be better off doing it directly rather than bringing it up in response to criticisms of Israel - it sometimes comes across as deflection, rather than adding context (although I know that's not your intention). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted April 30 Share Posted April 30 (edited) 10 hours ago, Panto_Villan said: I agree that the Palestinians should be held to account for their behaviour too, and I've criticised their organisations many times in this thread. It's perfectly reasonable for you to point those things out, but you might be better off doing it directly rather than bringing it up in response to criticisms of Israel - it sometimes comes across as deflection, rather than adding context (although I know that's not your intention). I despise Israel as much as anyone else for what they're doing, I'm just a bit fed up of the one sided gang-hysteria coming with the Pro-Palestinian stance at the moment, it's been 7 months of harassment, racism, bad arguments, going around calling for wiping out the only Jewish state in the world and a complete lack of awareness of other things. The oxygen that other issues need is essentially outplayed by a war which Palestinians started themselves, over and over and over. No one talks about how they've got a history as checkered as anyone, they're all talking about Israel. People (like you've seen in this thread) hold Israel to a much higher standard to other warring nations, be that the US, NATO, Russia or whatever. When someone then brashly comes in and lays all the blame on the country that has been invaded by their neighbours umpteen times, terrorised and had the (for some) unreasonable reaction to invasion and terror of striking back, in mostly defensive wars, I'll react. I'm tired of the childish pro-Palestinian stance with no context, no other thought than screaming about intifada and justice for a population which have been massive troublemakers not just to Israel but to everyone else around them, where no one holds anyone on 'their side' to account, while at the same time expecting Israel to behave better than any other warring state in the world. It's beyond me. Go back in this thread to the days after Israel started responding, by the look of some of the posters we were already then at 100.000 civilians killed, hospitals bombed (which turned out to be Hamas) and - when after 8 months, we're still not at 35.000 - including Hamas fighters, they're still banging the same drum. At the same time, a reported triple of that figure has died in Sudan, I don't see anyone at all protesting for helping the Sudanese military stop RSF who are actually committing genocide on the behedst and with the support of Russia\South Africa. The Palestinian cause is popular, popular to the point of people cheering for a people who are doing absolutely nothing in the way of moving forward or stopping the spiral even with billions and billions of aid every year. If you count the issues Egypt had with Gaza, this is the sixth war Gaza's population have brought to other people. Maybe it's time to start asking why, and trying to figure out what it is about Palestinians\Gaza which makes the population so prone to acting like this, even if it is Egypt, Hamas, Israel or whoever who is trying to control it. it's not all Israel's fault, and Palestinians aren't children. Edited April 30 by magnkarl 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted April 30 Share Posted April 30 The ICC by all accounts are on the verge of charging Netanyahu and two others at the top of the Israeli state, with war crimes, associated with the deprivation of food, as the first and earliest charges brought in an investigation which began in 2021, tasked with looking at 2014 and the years since. There will be other more complex charges brought in the years to come. They are also pursuing Hamas. We can all make assumptions about right and wrong, and we do, but it's high time a judgement like this was made - should it come to pass. If anything it will quell support for the Palestinian cause and create some balance, because people will no longer feel this injustice is being ignored. Of course I expect the ICC to be ridiculed by those who have been accused, but it'll be a start. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
villa89 Posted April 30 Share Posted April 30 4 minutes ago, Jareth said: The ICC by all accounts are on the verge of charging Netanyahu and two others at the top of the Israeli state, with war crimes, associated with the deprivation of food, as the first and earliest charges brought in an investigation which began in 2021, tasked with looking at 2014 and the years since. There will be other more complex charges brought in the years to come. They are also pursuing Hamas. We can all make assumptions about right and wrong, and we do, but it's high time a judgement like this was made - should it come to pass. If anything it will quell support for the Palestinian cause and create some balance, because people will no longer feel this injustice is being ignored. Of course I expect the ICC to be ridiculed by those who have been accused, but it'll be a start. It won't be a start though, because nothing will happen. Just like when the UN pass a resolution. It's just politicians/bureaucrats pretending they are doing something instead of actually doing something. It will be the same as when Putin was brought into the ICC, completely meaningless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted April 30 Share Posted April 30 Just now, villa89 said: It won't be a start though, because nothing will happen. Just like when the UN pass a resolution. It's just politicians/bureaucrats pretending they are doing something instead of actually doing something. It will be the same as when Putin was brought into the ICC, completely meaningless. Netanyahu and others will not be able to travel to Europe or any country who are obliged to arrest them having signed up to the ICC, for a start. It also applies pressure to western allies currently supplying weapons, as those weapons it will be proven are aiding war crimes. It matters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted April 30 Share Posted April 30 Perhaps there should be some neutral or multi party version of the Simon Wiesenthal Centre set up to relentlessly hunt down the butchers and their masters. Anybody killing hostages, targeting civilians, ordering the closure of food supply lines, using an injured child as sniper bait, stealing land, or bombing refugee tents should be hunted down. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted April 30 Share Posted April 30 (edited) 11 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Perhaps there should be some neutral or multi party version of the Simon Wiesenthal Centre set up to relentlessly hunt down the butchers and their masters. Anybody killing hostages, targeting civilians, ordering the closure of food supply lines, using an injured child as sniper bait, stealing land, or bombing refugee tents should be hunted down. A good idea. In my humble opinion you'd need to also go after the people who are stealing the aid that is meant for the Palestinian people. The heads of the PA\Fatah\PLO\Hamas are dripping rich and have absolutely no incentive to have Palestine be a proper state, it'd remove their cash cow. We also need to seriously look at how the UN is prolonging this rather than actually helping the people who are suffering by using militants and corrupt officials to hand out aid. It hasn't worked. In example, how is Yassir Arafat's widow so rich? How did Suha Arafat amass all these millions? Quote “You know and I know that this is the Palestinian people’s money. These millions didn’t belong to Yasser Arafat, they belong to the Palestinian people. Besides, the fact that these millions were embezzled or arrogated four or five years ago doesn’t mean that it is hopeless or too late to set the record straight." Edited April 30 by magnkarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dante_Lockhart Posted April 30 Share Posted April 30 After seeing a 'Protest Group' on a Uni campus refuse an openly Jewish student entry, I'm beginning to despair at the direction we're generally going as a race. (Human) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted April 30 Moderator Share Posted April 30 1 hour ago, magnkarl said: People (like you've seen in this thread) hold Israel to a much higher standard to other warring nations, be that the US, NATO, Russia or whatever I'm not sure that's really true. Without looking back, I guess there might be a tiny number of posts doing that, but generally no. I feel that people hold Israel to exactly the same standards as any other nation, particularly those nations with armed forces of a reasonable size/capability. One of the many issues is that both at an executive level and at an operational level the IDF and the government of Israel has massively breached, ignored, disregarded, those standards and that's so blindingly obvious and the cause of a fair amount of the loss of sympathy with Israel after the Oct 7 attacks. I genuinely don't think anyone on here would be any less critical of the countries you mention if they'd done something similar to what Israel has done in razing Gaza to the ground. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted April 30 Share Posted April 30 (edited) 18 minutes ago, blandy said: I'm not sure that's really true. Without looking back, I guess there might be a tiny number of posts doing that, but generally no. I feel that people hold Israel to exactly the same standards as any other nation, particularly those nations with armed forces of a reasonable size/capability. One of the many issues is that both at an executive level and at an operational level the IDF and the government of Israel has massively breached, ignored, disregarded, those standards and that's so blindingly obvious and the cause of a fair amount of the loss of sympathy with Israel after the Oct 7 attacks. I genuinely don't think anyone on here would be any less critical of the countries you mention if they'd done something similar to what Israel has done in razing Gaza to the ground. A few weeks ago this exact thing was done when Russia flattening Mariupol was mentioned, in this thread. The argument that was used was that Russia was attacking soldiers and weren't committing genocide. Edited April 30 by magnkarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumblerseven Posted April 30 Share Posted April 30 28 minutes ago, blandy said: I'm not sure that's really true. Without looking back, I guess there might be a tiny number of posts doing that, but generally no. Imagine saying this when there is @chrisp65 and @Jareth in this forum who comment alot and who categorically paint this conflict from one point of view. I was calling this out months ago! Hilarious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted April 30 Moderator Share Posted April 30 1 hour ago, magnkarl said: A few weeks ago this exact thing was done when Russia flattening Mariupol was mentioned, in this thread. The argument that was used was that Russia was attacking soldiers and weren't committing genocide. I can't find such posts. Maybe my search term wasn't the right one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted April 30 Moderator Share Posted April 30 1 hour ago, Tumblerseven said: Imagine saying this when there is @chrisp65 and @Jareth in this forum who comment alot and who categorically paint this conflict from one point of view. I was calling this out months ago! Hilarious It's not "hilarious". You're right that there is an awful lot of horror and revulsion of the 10s of thousands of civilians killed by Israel's actions, and the suffering of the children, women and men of Gaza at the hands of Israel. The blocking of adequate aid, food, water, the destruction of hospitals, schools, churches and religious buildings, the targeting of aid workers and so much more. You're also right that some posters understandably, perhaps have seen all that horror and have come to the view that Israel is behaving worse than their terrorist opponents. If you count the bodies, it's hard to reach any other conclusion. If you look at the nature of the acts committed it's less clear cut and both combatant sides look abhorrent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumblerseven Posted April 30 Share Posted April 30 16 minutes ago, blandy said: It's not "hilarious". You're also right that some posters understandably, perhaps have seen all that horror and have come to the view that Israel is behaving worse than their terrorist opponents. If you count the bodies, it's hard to reach any other conclusion. If you look at the nature of the acts committed it's less clear cut and both combatant sides look abhorrent. No it is hilarious that you dont see how for 100 pages from october 7 people in here is demonizing and going after israel in an unfair manner. Those people who look at israel and hamas and dont see clear difference in their actions those people are unreasonable. If person cant see a difference between a bombing with intent to kill terrorists and a terrorist who rapes and beheads people thats... i dont even know what to say to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted April 30 Share Posted April 30 1 hour ago, Tumblerseven said: Imagine saying this when there is @chrisp65 and @Jareth in this forum who comment alot and who categorically paint this conflict from one point of view. I was calling this out months ago! Hilarious Out of curiosity I just scanned back through the last dozen or so pages. I’ve said the following: ‘it’s not just Netanyahu… those behind 7th October also need to be hunted down’ ’undoubtedly letting them (Hamas) back in any significant way will eventually lead to the next cycle of violence’ ’neither side should rely on just endlessly playing the victim card’ ’why can’t the leaders just bomb each other’ ’death cults in Israel..and Iran’ ’greater (UN) intervention (in Gaza) could educate and coach some of the extremism out of the culture’ ’anybody killing hostages… targeting civilians…should be hunted down’ I’m not sure that’s painting a conflict from a single point of view? I most definitely have been very critical of Netanyahu and the IDF. They are a sophisticated modern military and they’ve killed tens of thousands of civilians whilst restricting access to food and water. Personally, I struggle finding the innocent party between someone that kills teenagers at a music festival, and someone that kills refugees in tents. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blandy Posted April 30 Moderator Share Posted April 30 11 minutes ago, Tumblerseven said: people in here is demonizing and going after israel in an unfair manner. What would be a fair manner of assessing Israel's actions? Bearing in mind the 10s of thousands of dead civilians, the suffering of innocent people in Gaza, the lack of food, medicine, water, aid, the destruction of their homes and hospitals and Schools and religious places? How would you not unfairly comment on those actions? Would you say they were proportionate? would you say they have minimised civilian suffering? would you say they are not (at least in part) war crimes? Would you say the Government of Israel, this coalition of Benny and the extremist right is a good, fair minded and reasonable one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumblerseven Posted April 30 Share Posted April 30 (edited) 9 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Out of curiosity I just scanned back through the last dozen or so pages. I’ve said the following: ‘it’s not just Netanyahu… those behind 7th October also need to be hunted down’ ’undoubtedly letting them (Hamas) back in any significant way will eventually lead to the next cycle of violence’ ’neither side should rely on just endlessly playing the victim card’ ’why can’t the leaders just bomb each other’ ’death cults in Israel..and Iran’ ’greater (UN) intervention (in Gaza) could educate and coach some of the extremism out of the culture’ ’anybody killing hostages… targeting civilians…should be hunted down’ I’m not sure that’s painting a conflict from a single point of view? I most definitely have been very critical of Netanyahu and the IDF. They are a sophisticated modern military and they’ve killed tens of thousands of civilians whilst restricting access to food and water. Personally, I struggle finding the innocent party between someone that kills teenagers at a music festival, and someone that kills refugees in tents. you said this too first random page. Quote We’re at a horrible point here where it dawns that tens of thousands of lives may have been saved if Israel had assassinated western aid workers a few months earlier. Quote Specific to this conflict, I doubt the IDF threaten to execute IDF personnel that refuse to murder mothers and children. I dont understand are we like pretending that people in here dont demonize israel? :DDD Or your argument i said a few nice things so that means im fair? you cant be serious. Edited April 30 by Tumblerseven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted April 30 Share Posted April 30 53 minutes ago, blandy said: I can't find such posts. Maybe my search term wasn't the right one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mic09 Posted April 30 Share Posted April 30 1 minute ago, Tumblerseven said: you said this too. I dont understand are we like pretending that people in here dont demonize israel? :DDD They are demonizing Israel. And Hamas. And Iran. Often rightly so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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