bobzy Posted October 28, 2023 Share Posted October 28, 2023 1 hour ago, Keyblade said: I was a kid but I distinctly remember seeing Iraq getting getting bombed to hell and back on the news seemingly every day. It was over a much longer period granted, but conservative estimates are that hundreds of thousands of civilians died. I think by this point in the invasion, the numbers were similar (the numbers we have anyway, before someone says they're coming from Hamas). Different situation though, with Iraq (should never have happened - as I say, “the West” has done plenty of abhorrent things)? It wasn’t a retaliatory attack on terrorists who hit the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted October 28, 2023 Share Posted October 28, 2023 While the population they claim to be fighting on behalf of is paying dearly for their terrorism, Hamas’ leaders are enjoying life in their seaside villas in Turkey and Qatar. Quote Haniyeh, who became Palestinian prime minister after the 2006 election and is now the overall leader of Hamas, left Gaza in 2019 for what Hamas said was a temporary foreign tour. He has yet to return Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckyeddie Posted October 28, 2023 Share Posted October 28, 2023 3 hours ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said: Another note, while people like Obama hard charm, swagger, political savvy and could talk the pants off a Nun. Worth remembering during his tenor they were routinely drone bombing the shit out of the region as well. Many civilian casualties I saw a statistic that said a bomb was dropped every 20 minutes throughout Obama's eight year presidency. Appearances can be deceptive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mic09 Posted October 28, 2023 Share Posted October 28, 2023 4 hours ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said: Another note, while people like Obama hard charm, swagger, political savvy and could talk the pants off a Nun. Worth remembering during his tenor they were routinely drone bombing the shit out of the region as well. Many civilian casualties That's what gets you the Nobel peace prize. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xann Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 9 hours ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said: Another note, while people like Obama hard charm, swagger, political savvy and could talk the pants off a Nun. Worth remembering during his tenor they were routinely drone bombing the shit out of the region as well. Many civilian casualties People sing Obama's praise from the rooftops. 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panto_Villan Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 (edited) I was a little confused as to why Israel was so intent on ensuring fuel didn’t reach Gaza - why did it matter if Hamas stole it? It’s not like they have armoured vehicles. What do they need it for? AK-47s and RPGs don’t run on petrol. Anyway, someone pointed out today that the reason is because of the huge Hamas tunnel network - without fuel to power the generators, there’s no fresh air or light down there and it’ll force Hamas to the surface rather than making Israel clear the tunnels with soldiers (probably obvious in hindsight.) This isn’t an attempt to justify anything, or part of a wider point. Just mentioning it here in case anyone else was in the same boat as me. Edited October 29, 2023 by Panto_Villan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delboy54 Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 16 hours ago, Rustibrooks said: I’ve not disputed what Hamas has done, as echoed by many it was a terrible day. I just maintain that Israel could’ve handled this better and that currently they are going too far imo. Just playing devils advocate, but just how do you think a country should react if a group of terrorists slaughtered 1400 of their civilians many of them women and children? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAMAICAN-VILLAN Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 (edited) 22 minutes ago, delboy54 said: Just playing devils advocate, but just how do you think a country should react if a group of terrorists slaughtered 1400 of their civilians many of them women and children? How do you think Palestinians should react if 10 times as many of their civilian women and children have been slaughtered by IDF? This is a circular argument... and a circular conflict. Again... what's the retribution rate? Edited October 29, 2023 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
delboy54 Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 I get that JV..... But if the sole intention of hamas is to kill all Jews and destroy Israel as well as accept no arbitration (refer to the covenant of hamas), then how is this conflict ever going to be resolved? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VILLAMARV Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 17 minutes ago, delboy54 said: just how do you think a country should react if a group of terrorists slaughtered 1400 of their civilians many of them women and children? It's a really good question to be fair, I think to give it a proper answer though I'd want a bit more information, like - what are they trying to acheive with their response? The answer to the first question would probably change imho, depending on the answer to the second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAMAICAN-VILLAN Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keyblade Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 1 hour ago, delboy54 said: Just playing devils advocate, but just how do you think a country should react if a group of terrorists slaughtered 1400 of their civilians many of them women and children? Not slaughtering tenfold of their civilians themselves probably. Even if by some miracle every official Hamas member died, something else will invariably replace it because of this so I don't even get what it accomplished besides some notion of revenge. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 1 hour ago, delboy54 said: Just playing devils advocate, but just how do you think a country should react if a group of terrorists slaughtered 1400 of their civilians many of them women and children? I’m no expert. I think I’d try and eliminate Hamas. I’ve mentioned this previously, but I guess one of our nearest common experiences would be the IRA. Had the IRA managed an atrocity on this scale, would the UK have gone after the entire IRA infrastructure and killed every last one connected with the IRA, or would they just start bombing Northern Ireland, telling people to move to Belfast to be safe and then bombing Belfast? The current Israeli tactic, scorched flattened earth and thousands dead. Are they going to kill 2.2 million people, or are they going to presume that the 10 and 12 year olds that live through this will grow up as stable well educated people that have learned the lesson to be nice to Israel. I’ll just tag on there, for the avoidance of doubt, the absolute same can be asked of Hamas. They can’t possibly have thought they would eliminate every last Israeli and they can’t possibly imagine they were potentially going to win and retain great swathes of land and cause a similar uprising in the West Bank. So utterly pointless when they all must know that eventually they have to talk to each other. Or go through this for another hundred years. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a-k Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 1 hour ago, Keyblade said: Not slaughtering tenfold of their civilians themselves probably. Even if by some miracle every official Hamas member died, something else will invariably replace it because of this so I don't even get what it accomplished besides some notion of revenge. This seems to be everyone's answer, but "what they shouldn't do" doesn't actually answer the question of "what they should do" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rustibrooks Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, delboy54 said: Just playing devils advocate, but just how do you think a country should react if a group of terrorists slaughtered 1400 of their civilians many of them women and children? @JAMAICAN-VILLAN@Keyblade @chrisp65 Have all pretty much answered the question on behalf of me. I’m in that ball park of thinking. I just think it’s redundant carpet bombing the hell out of Gaza. Why? Because what is the end goal? I don’t think it’s smart doing so because even if you kill members of Hamas while doing so, you also will breed a new set of children with hatred in their hearts that will likely do the same thing that happened on October 7th or worse. We know how much of an impact trauma has on kids with so many other horrible things that are inflicted on victims from adults, the same will happen with them seeing their parents/siblings bodies amongst the rubble if they themselves haven’t been killed. The cycle just won’t end with Hamas if this is the way the IDF want to handle things. I think it’s a shortsighted move but could be devastating in the future. There’s just other ways in my opinion you can handle going into a situation like this, they have one of the better ranked militaries in the world and also intelligence agencies (that’s back by US,UK and France) I’m sure a covert mission or a ground incursion without carpet bombing would be possible. Edited October 29, 2023 by Rustibrooks 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a-k Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, a-k said: Although this guy seems very hyperbolic, there is some truth to it. The issue for the 'free Palestine' movement is that they have no clue what it is they are protesting for, other than 'Free Palestine', what is Free Palestine? Is it Egypt? Is it Israel? Is it Jordan? Is it Judea? You then mix in the very volatile nature of some of the groups 'protesting' for a 'free' Palestine, while at the same time waving Hamas and Islamic Jihad Flags around, are those organisations really for a 'free Palestine'? Is Iran or Hezbollah, or Qatar, Egypt and Saudi-Arabia? Hamas and Likud (along with some very right wing Jewish settler groups who killed Yizhak Rabin) are pretty much making it so that there will never be a 'free Palestine', one group is ensuring that Likud's idiotic generalisation of all Palestinians as children of darkness sticks due to generational trauma and propaganda, while the other is turning the pretty much only democracy in the ME into a right wing semi-fascist state. We had a kind of Good Friday agreement with the Oslo accords, then both sides decided to squander it to hunt for the extremes of their political systems, one Sharia Law supportive fundamentalist Islamic terrorist group and one right wing, democracy-killing Trump-lookalike that would sacrifice his whole country just to stay in power after being caught red-handed more times than Donald himself. Then you've got the so called friends of Palestine - Egypt, Jordan, Iran, SA, Qatar, Oman, Syria and Turkey who seem content to have the Palestinian people stay put rather than trying to help them, because thousands of civilians dying in Palestine as an effect of their geo-political concern to not want to help beyond regurgitating some statement about Israel being bad, and the Jewish people needing to be exterminated (Iran, Syria, Hezbollah) is all they're willing to do. I weep for the Palestinian people as much as I weep for the moderates in Israel who are being pressured from all sides to become more and more extreme, to go to war, to pay for right wing nutters to 'study' the Torah as their only job with a side-hustle in displacing a whole people in the West Bank. Edited October 29, 2023 by magnkarl 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 1 hour ago, a-k said: Who dat? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted October 29, 2023 Share Posted October 29, 2023 56 minutes ago, magnkarl said: Although this guy seems very hyperbolic, 35 minutes ago, Jareth said: Who dat? Is he the Mosab Hassan Yousef that was working for the IDF and Israeli secret service as an informant and spy? The one that whilst being paid by Israel said Islam was like nazism. Which of course, we are all banned from saying in the other direction as that is literally one of the proofs of anti semitism. If he is, then whatever he says on that tweet I’d absolutely fully trust it to be fair and balanced and well worth a listen… yep. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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