bickster Posted October 28, 2023 Moderator Share Posted October 28, 2023 23 minutes ago, Mic09 said: Why does any uprising happen? A group who are/believe to be persecuted and imprisoned start an uprising. They know they are outnumbered and know the punishment will be severe. This wasn’t an uprising. This was a terrorist attack on another country, it was organised, well equipped, funded by foreign powers, well planned and attacked ordinary citizens not apparatus of the oppressing state. Framing it as an uprising just isn’t correct 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted October 28, 2023 Moderator Share Posted October 28, 2023 2 minutes ago, a-k said: Citizens of Gaza are just as imprisoned by Hamas-, why not an uprising against them? Citizens of Gaza are not 'just as imprisoned by Hamas'. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted October 28, 2023 Moderator Share Posted October 28, 2023 2 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said: Citizens of Gaza are not 'just as imprisoned by Hamas'. There are very good arguments that they are, maybe not “just as” but certainly “oppressed by” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lichfield Dean Posted October 28, 2023 VT Supporter Share Posted October 28, 2023 So... Our government refused to support a resolution opposing the genocide of an entire country because they weren't allowed to put a line in it that said, "but they started it!!!" I honestly have no words ... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted October 28, 2023 Share Posted October 28, 2023 7 minutes ago, a-k said: A terrorist organization slaughtering 1000 innocent civilians in cold-blood in not an uprising. Citizens of Gaza are just as imprisoned by Hamas-, why not an uprising against them? The people in Gaza are trapped there by Hamas and Israel. If every last Hamas with a gun was killed last night Israel ain’t letting the families walk out of Gaza and in to Israel. Hamas didn’t create the refugee camps, or build walls, fences and security zones they are a predicate bel and planned reaction to it. The uprising is a good point though, why don’t everyday people rise up against their oppressors? Shouldn’t the people living in the occupied parts of Ukraine just rise up and beat Russia if Russia are so bad? Shouldn’t the children and grandmothers of Tehran just rise up and beat Iran’s morality police? Now what about a terrorist gang slaughtering 7,000? Should the people of Israel rise up against them? Or are they complicit for not confronting them head on? 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mic09 Posted October 28, 2023 Share Posted October 28, 2023 19 minutes ago, bickster said: This wasn’t an uprising. This was a terrorist attack on another country, it was organised, well equipped, funded by foreign powers, well planned and attacked ordinary citizens not apparatus of the oppressing state. Framing it as an uprising just isn’t correct To us it isn't. To those terrorists it probably was. Look at any other uprising. Taking Warsaw as an obvious one. How do you think the Germans thought of what happened? Bunch of underground resistance killing Germans. Polish resistance was often fed intel from the west. Eye of the beholder sort of an analogy. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OutByEaster? Posted October 28, 2023 Moderator Share Posted October 28, 2023 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-middle-east-67246761 Quote UK Foreign Secretary James Cleverly says that calls for a ceasefire “aren’t going to help the situation”. "Of course we want to see Israel safe, peaceful and secure,” he says in an interview, but there is no indication from Hamas that they would accept or abide by a ceasefire. Cleverly reiterates UK support for Israel and the importance of adhering to international law. He says that it is important to remember that it was Hamas who initiated this round of fighting with their brutal attack on 7 October. He refrains from saying there is a humanitarian crisis in Gaza, and pins the blame for the situation on Hamas. “We want to alleviate that suffering,” he says, which is why the UK has increased its commitment to humanitarian aid to the Palestinians. Cleverly concludes by warning protesters in the UK to be mindful of misinformation and manipulation, and says that they should be wary of a “small minority” who have more "negative aims”. It's hard not be ashamed. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted October 28, 2023 Moderator Share Posted October 28, 2023 1 minute ago, Mic09 said: To us it isn't. To those terrorists it probably was. Look at any other uprising. Taking Warsaw as an obvious one. How do you think the Germans thought of what happened? Bunch of underground resistance killing Germans. Polish resistance was often fed intel from the west. Eye of the beholder sort of an analogy. The targets of the Warsaw Uprising were military and that is a huge difference 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mic09 Posted October 28, 2023 Share Posted October 28, 2023 5 minutes ago, bickster said: The targets of the Warsaw Uprising were military and that is a huge difference Ok, look at Polish civilians killed by Ukrainian resistance in 1940s. Arguably one of the worst massacres in modern Europe. You are talking tens of thousands. And that's only because of a land dispute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted October 28, 2023 Moderator Share Posted October 28, 2023 22 minutes ago, Mic09 said: Ok, look at Polish civilians killed by Ukrainian resistance in 1940s. Arguably one of the worst massacres in modern Europe. You are talking tens of thousands. And that's only because of a land dispute. Are we talking about Volhyn? Not something I know much about unfortunately And we're on the verge of going way off topic here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YLN Posted October 28, 2023 Share Posted October 28, 2023 3 hours ago, delboy54 said: Lots of interesting discussion and points of view but I am still waiting for someone to suggest the possible answers to the following questions. What was the objectives of the massacre of Israeli civilians by hamas? What did hamas hope to achieve? What outcomes did hamas expect from this? What did they think was going to be the Israeli response? That's one question Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr_Dogg Posted October 28, 2023 Share Posted October 28, 2023 For a bit of perspective, during the horror of the Northern Ireland troubles it is estimated that 3,700 people were killed. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a-k Posted October 28, 2023 Share Posted October 28, 2023 1 hour ago, chrisp65 said: The people in Gaza are trapped there by Hamas and Israel. If every last Hamas with a gun was killed last night Israel ain’t letting the families walk out of Gaza and in to Israel. Hamas didn’t create the refugee camps, or build walls, fences and security zones they are a predicate bel and planned reaction to it. This is only half the truth. As unfortunate as it is and as harsh as it sounds, other countries feel the same way too. People seem to forget that Egypt evicted 70,000 people to create a buffer zone (https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/05/22/egypt-army-intensifies-sinai-home-demolitions). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted October 28, 2023 Share Posted October 28, 2023 1 minute ago, Mr_Dogg said: For a bit of perspective, during the horror of the Northern Ireland troubles it is estimated that 3,700 people were killed. I guess one of the key differences would be the army didn’t kettle all the catholic families in to Derry and then carpet bomb it. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted October 28, 2023 Share Posted October 28, 2023 4 minutes ago, a-k said: This is only half the truth. As unfortunate as it is and as harsh as it sounds, other countries feel the same way too. People seem to forget that Egypt evicted 70,000 people to create a buffer zone (https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/05/22/egypt-army-intensifies-sinai-home-demolitions). Why don’t the people of Sinai just rise up against Egypt? Nobody has forgotten this happens elsewhere, all across the planet. Its just not quite the right time for international whataboutism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a-k Posted October 28, 2023 Share Posted October 28, 2023 2 minutes ago, chrisp65 said: Why don’t the people of Sinai just rise up against Egypt? Nobody has forgotten this happens elsewhere, all across the planet. Its just not quite the right time for international whataboutism. You completely circumvented the point. It was not about a Sinai uprising against Egypt, it was that people seem to conveniently ignore that Egypt also has their own blockade and buffer zone on Gaza. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAMAICAN-VILLAN Posted October 28, 2023 Share Posted October 28, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, a-k said: A terrorist organization slaughtering 1000 innocent civilians in cold-blood in not an uprising. Citizens of Gaza are just as imprisoned by Hamas-, why not an uprising against them? History never began on October 7th... It's bizarre to me how people keep blanking the blatantly obvious for convenience of the narrative These numbers will be much juicier by the end of this. As the Egyptian commentator/comedian said on Piers Morgan: " What's the going exchange rate for Palestinian lives this year? " " Hamas does not exist in the West Bank for example, so why are they being murdered over there too? " Some of the things I see people regurgitating are literally narrative's from the likes.of Fox News and biased media. I suggest people who don't know the depths and scale of this do some individual research, and some unbiased AND biased ( to the other side ) news. https://www.statista.com/chart/amp/16516/israeli-palestinian-casualties-by-in-gaza-and-the-west-bank/ Edited October 28, 2023 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted October 28, 2023 Moderator Share Posted October 28, 2023 2 minutes ago, JAMAICAN-VILLAN said: History never began on October 7th... It's bizarre to me how people keep blanking the blatantly obvious. Are their similar figures for the period prior to 2006? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted October 28, 2023 Share Posted October 28, 2023 4 minutes ago, a-k said: You completely circumvented the point. It was not about a Sinai uprising against Egypt, it was that people seem to conveniently ignore that Egypt also has their own blockade and buffer zone on Gaza. It’s a different separate independent state. Would you expect the border with Syria, Lebanon or Jordan to be open and fluid? Egypt was attacked by rockets from ISIS in that 2018 anrticle and re established the buffer zone security? What’s your point? That Egypt should take in 2.2 million Palestinian refugees and leave a nice bit of coast free for Israeli settlers? Explain it to me, why is this Hamas / Israel war only half the story? Should other nations just find the Palestinians a new country? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAMAICAN-VILLAN Posted October 28, 2023 Share Posted October 28, 2023 (edited) 5 minutes ago, bickster said: Are their similar figures for the period prior to 2006? https://www.un.org/unispal/document/auto-insert-208380/ Edited October 28, 2023 by JAMAICAN-VILLAN Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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