Israel, Palestine and Iran

[a-k]

20 minutes ago, Pongo Waring said:

Isn't what this war is about tho, 

 

Israel freeing palestine(Gaza) from the terrorists Hamas?... You don't just expect someone to do a sudden terrorist attack on someone's soil, killing Americans, Europeans and British citizens and all these country turning around "it's okay we will let you off this time" ?

Let's not forget that around 3/4s of the land in the original British Mandate was separated and given to what is now Jordan.

Don't hear anyone shouting "Free Palestine from Jordan"

[Chicken Field]

4 hours ago, Keyblade said:

Here's that Duolingo ass Arabic again. Surely this is for a western audience.

 

Scared to post on this thread, the conflict is understandibly a sensitive topic. What is and has been happening for a long time there is a tragedy.

 

I was just thinking about these videos with "poor arabic", IDF have millions of pounds, surely if they were to fake videos, they would hire someone that speaks the language properly?

It reminds me of when people criticize the moon landing videos with massive wrong details, these companies are worth millions and are trying to convince billions, surely if they are hiring actors or whatever in an attempt to convince that someone is arabic/palestinian, then surely they would have in mind that they would need to hire someone that actually speaks the language? (this respons is more to the phone call maybe involved in the hospital explosion than this video) 

 

Edited October 20, 2023 by Chicken Field

[VILLAMARV]

56 minutes ago, Pongo Waring said:

Isn't what this war is about tho,

Israel freeing palestine(Gaza) from the terrorists Hamas?... You don't just expect someone to do a sudden terrorist attack on someone's soil, killing Americans, Europeans and British citizens and all these country turning around "it's okay we will let you off this time" ?

No, of course not - but your response highlights a massive problem with discourse in the modern age imho. And it keeps cropping up in this thread. If we start with a preposition that is so nonsensical it is easy to refute it frames the argument, often into a binary choice - this side/that side, good/evil etc. It's a form of strawman argument and it boils my piss. We end up playing tit for tat over which violent act 'trumps' another violent act. I know people have been (rightly) outraged by Hamas killing children in premeditated acts of violence this week, but people were also (rightly) outraged when the UN reported that IDF soldiers on duty had killed children, women and reporters in premeditated acts of violence in another week. Weird though, isnt it, that that point has not been made as the counterpoint in the argument. Often pitting murder of children against acts like collateral damage, death through sanctions or in one chat this week (although not in the same context - but still about strawmanning) having a car accident. It's more worthwhile comparing apples to apples rather than apples to oranges.

As someone else rightly pointed out upthread ideas are impossible to defeat with violence. So the suggestion that Israel are off to free Palestine of Hamas by dropping bombs on them and kettling them into less an less of their own country is just nonsensical to my mind on so many levels.

The way the conflict is framed is a massive problem for a lot of onlookers who have genuine sympathies with all the human beings caught up like pawns in the horror that has been unfolding for decades. I appreciate there may be posters who have English as a second language and sometimes things get lost in translation. It's a complicated, nuanced language like all of them. We ourselves mess up sometimes as most regular posters would probably admit. It's not about demonizing the individual behind the posts imo - especially in topics as deep, complicated and triggering as this one. It's hard for us supporters of Aston Villa to have all the answers to solve the problems in the middle east and I'm no zealot, but I think we're able to comment on the framing of the debate as it is presented to us.

[Jareth]

Didn’t realise Russia had pissed Israel off so much. Russia’s support for Israel’s enemies was already known, yet Israel side stepped the Ukraine conflict despite many Russian provocations. 

[Pongo Waring]

Thats awful

[LondonLax]

2 hours ago, Jareth said:

Didn’t realise Russia had pissed Israel off so much. Russia’s support for Israel’s enemies was already known, yet Israel side stepped the Ukraine conflict despite many Russian provocations. 

They probably thought they might need the equipment themselves at some point. 

[Xann]

As if Roman Abramovich's life isn't already complicated enough?

[Chindie]

7 minutes ago, Xann said:

As if Roman Abramovich's life isn't already complicated enough?

Careful now.

[bickster]

4 minutes ago, Xann said:

As if Roman Abramovich's life isn't already complicated enough?

I was thinking about him before too.

There is of course the possibility that Israel is the safest place for him right now but Israel / Russia relations are also further complicated by the fact there are currently around 600,000 Russian citizens who have a "right of return" to Israel

[Keyblade]

Biden's tweets over the last 24 hrs have been increasingly reminiscent of Bush and Iraq.

 

[TheAuthority]

8 minutes ago, Keyblade said:

Biden's tweets over the last 24 hrs have been increasingly reminiscent of Bush and Iraq.

 

I see why you would make your comment but the context is very different to 20 years ago.

Putin is a dictator and should not be allowed to run rough shot over Ukraine. There is no comparison to Hussein.

The Israeli Palestinian situation is obviously far more nuanced and delicate. To my mind he's warning Iran without mentioning them.

Edited October 20, 2023 by TheAuthority

[DJBOB]

 
An interesting back and forth and line of questioning. A lot of the same doublespeak.

“We only target soldiers.”

”These are prisoners, not hostages.”

Trying to incite other Arab nations to do more against Israel. Think that is Hamas main goal here, incite and invite further conflict. 

[DJBOB]

48 minutes ago, TheAuthority said:

I see why you would make your comment but the context is very different to 20 years ago.

Putin is a dictator and should not be allowed to run rough shot over Ukraine. There is no comparison to Hussein.

The Israeli Palestinian situation is obviously far more nuanced and delicate. To my mind he's warning Iran without mentioning them.

A good read of the situation. The far right wing doesn’t want to keep funding Ukraine. The far left wing doesn’t want to keep funding Israel. No one wants troops or further escalation. No speaker of the house. Outrageous inflation. 
 
Biden doing his best to thread the needle and keep stops in place but faces a lot of difficulties here. 

Edited October 20, 2023 by DJBOB

[OutByEaster?]

There seems to be an increasing amount of evidence that Israel's version of events around the bombing of the hospital has some huge holes in it, and more and more it looks like an Israeli bombing. With the story about the beheadings also having been proved untrue (as it was initially before it was re-claimed as true so as not to embarrass a US President at opening of his campaign cycle) and the Israeli refusal to allow aid through to Gaza from Egypt (even though they said they would), there's a picture building of a nation that doesn't have a particularly merciful outcome in mind.

This is going to be a bloodbath, and with the US and its Western Allies, including the UK, right behind Israel, there's going to be nothing to do but watch tens or hundreds of thousands of people die while we listen to folks on the telly say that they aren't targeting those hundreds of thousands of people and it's just unfortunate.

Great.

 

 

 

[Tumblerseven]

5 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

There seems to be an increasing amount of evidence that Israel's version of events around the bombing of the hospital has some huge holes in it, and more and more it looks like an Israeli bombing. With the story about the beheadings also having been proved untrue (as it was initially before it was re-claimed as true so as not to embarrass a US President at opening of his campaign cycle) and the Israeli refusal to allow aid through to Gaza from Egypt (even though they said they would), there's a picture building of a nation that doesn't have a particularly merciful outcome in mind.

This is going to be a bloodbath, and with the US and its Western Allies, including the UK, right behind Israel, there's going to be nothing to do but watch tens or hundreds of thousands of people die while we listen to folks on the telly say that they aren't targeting those hundreds of thousands of people and it's just unfortunate.

Great.

 

 

 

Can you share what you reading?

[magnkarl]

5 minutes ago, OutByEaster? said:

There seems to be an increasing amount of evidence that Israel's version of events around the bombing of the hospital has some huge holes in it, and more and more it looks like an Israeli bombing. With the story about the beheadings also having been proved untrue (as it was initially before it was re-claimed as true so as not to embarrass a US President at opening of his campaign cycle) and the Israeli refusal to allow aid through to Gaza from Egypt (even though they said they would), there's a picture building of a nation that doesn't have a particularly merciful outcome in mind.

This is going to be a bloodbath, and with the US and its Western Allies, including the UK, right behind Israel, there's going to be nothing to do but watch tens or hundreds of thousands of people die while we listen to folks on the telly say that they aren't targeting those hundreds of thousands of people and it's just unfortunate.

Great.

 

 

 

Add to that you’ve got a terrorist organisation ready to fire 100.000 rockets into Israel and the West Bank, which will likely penetrate the iron dome and kill indiscriminately both in Palestine and Israel.

The noise from the Golan Heights isn’t sounding too good.

Both parties in this conflict don’t want to stop this. I fear we’re close to a new Yum Kippur type war where lots of civilians will be caught between idiots on both sides. Tragic.

[avfc1982am]

52 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

 
An interesting back and forth and line of questioning. A lot of the same doublespeak.

“We only target soldiers.”

”These are prisoners, not hostages.”

Trying to incite other Arab nations to do more against Israel. Think that is Hamas main goal here, incite and invite further conflict. 

I listen to people like this and just feel they would love nothing more than some sort of Holy War to kick off. The way he talks about sacrifice like it's part of the plan, even when talking about Palestinians. 

[OutByEaster?]

1 hour ago, Tumblerseven said:

Can you share what you reading?

I've been watching the news today in terms of the hospital bombing - there was wide coverage yesterday that concluded that it was very likely the taped conversation between the two members of Hamas was fraudulent - there's been more information today on the device itself, with analysis of the video/audio that's emerged suggesting it's unlikely to have a been a fragment from a missile - I'd recommend Channel 4 news.

The beheading thing was a fascinating example of how the journalism of war and politics works - for starters, we've got an absolutely horrific murder of infants, a war crime in the eyes of absolutely any sensible opinion.

I suspect someone present was so keen to ensure the world understood how awful it was, how truly horrific, that they over-egged the pudding to a journalist and added beheadings - the UK press in particular leapt on it - beheaded babies is such a strong image, it sells papers, it screams a message and it allows a shortcut to a justified anger. Journalists in Israel and members of the Israeli government quietly suggested it hadn't happened - we had Netanyahu releasing shocking pictures of dead infants, I think to ensure that even though the beheading claim was wrong, the strength of the crime itself wouldn't be underplayed based on the inaccuracy of one rash claim - it was still a truly chilling, heartless crime.

Quietly pretty much all of the media were rolling back on it at exactly the time that the President of the USA claimed he'd seen pictures of it - again, a President using an image as a shortcut to making a point to a lot of people on the seriousness of a crime. US officials have quietly suggested since that it wasn't what he saw or said - but at this early stage in the Presidential cycle in the US, the President claiming to see things he hasn't seen isn't something that can be true - so it became true again for a couple of days before everyone quietly rolled back on it.

It's an horrendous war crime and should be treated as such - but there's no evidence of the beheading of babies.

Then we've got the President of the USA boldly claiming he'd been able negotiate with Israel a secure access to Gaza for a symbolic convoy of twenty aid lorries through the border with Egypt - it didn't happen the next day as there needed to be repair to the roads in Gaza as Israel had reportedly bombed the area after the announcement - that still hasn't happened as the Israeli's are delaying it on the basis of their concerns it'll wind up in the hands of Hamas.

Much of that is my opinion - I've read a lot of things in the last couple of weeks, I'm sure a lot of us have.

[DJBOB]

2 minutes ago, avfc1982am said:

I listen to people like this and just feel they would love nothing more than some sort of Holy War to kick off. The way he talks about sacrifice like it's part of the plan, even when talking about Palestinians. 

Part of the problem, right? Say we go to the extreme solutions. Israel goes all the way back to the 1967 borders, splits Jerusalem in half - no longer has occupation or settlers and stays within their borders. 
 
Do you think the Iran or the axis of resistance would leave Israel alone?

You could say you won’t know until you try but that would be really ignoring lots of the rhetoric from staunchly anti-Israel nations. 

[OutByEaster?]

This story leaves a fair few questions:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-67175094

Quote

Israel has suggested that the long-term aim of its military campaign in Gaza is to sever all links with the territory.

Israeli Defence Minister Yoav Gallant said that once Hamas had been defeated, Israel would end its "responsibility for life in the Gaza Strip".

It suggests that following the ground war, Israel will not return to accepting responsibility for providing electricity/water etc to Gaza in line with the responsibilities placed upon it by the UN as an occupying force - they'll simply stop caring and leave them to it.

However, what this means is much harder to figure out:

Quote

The third phase, he said, "will require the removal of Israel's responsibility for life in the Gaza Strip, and the establishment of a new security reality for the citizens of Israel".

It certainly doesn't suggest an end to the blockade by sea and air or the closure of Gaza's borders by the Israelis - if anything it simply suggests that they'll lock everything off, turn out the lights and leave - it's hard to see how that wouldn't be an humanitarian disaster, an unsurvivable locked box.

I can understand Israel not wanting to provide for Gaza, but surely if that's their intention they would have to open Gaza up to the rest of the world in order to allow it a chance to provide for itself or at least to accept aid and trade with other nations?

I can't see that happening so I'm at a bit of a loss as to what exactly the intention is.