New Manager Speculation

[One For The Road]

47 minutes ago, DaveAV1 said:

I think there’s room for balance. Facts of course are important. What I was trying to say though, was we’re not really in possession of many of the facts, but you’d like to think that the decision makers are and will do their due diligence on all the candidates.

However appointing a human into almost any job is not an exact science. So cold hard facts are probably at best room temperature squidgy facts. 

It's called a CV. Everyone who applies for a job needs to prove they have sufficient qualifications for the position. Henry does not meet those requirements for me.

[bobzy]

1 minute ago, One For The Road said:

It's called a CV. Everyone who applies for a job needs to prove they have sufficient qualifications for the position. Henry does not meet those requirements for me.

There's certainly more of a "feel" element in football than just "have you done it"?  Frank Lampard isn't getting the Derby job based on his CV.

[peterms]

2 hours ago, Zatman said:

Everybody that has worked with Roy Keane has said that he expects players to be as good as he was and I think a few other ex-pros have had same issue. Henry might be able to get his ideas across to Lukaku, Hazard and De Bruyne because they are close to his level as a player. Remember Henry was a demanding player as well

Will he have the patience to work with Jedinak, Whelan and Kodjia 

It's certainly a reasonable question.  On the basis of a couple of youtube videos I would say that he strikes me as someone who gets a buzz from explaining to people things that he knows and they don't, has the ability to do that in a way which is not patronising or self-serving, and that this would be a pretty good attribute for a coach to have.

If I had someone with that general approach teaching me, well, pretty much anything, I think I would appreciate it and find it motivating.

[One For The Road]

4 minutes ago, bobzy said:

There's certainly more of a "feel" element in football than just "have you done it"?  Frank Lampard isn't getting the Derby job based on his CV.

True. But we are in a worse position as a club than derby with far higher expectations. This is a club so big that some people on this very forum think we can attract some of the worlds top managers and yet we are now after a man with no managerial experience.

I knew we wouldn't be getting any of the silly names being mentioned (for which I was lambasted by some), but I did at least think we would hire an actual manager and not a potential one.

I will be devastated if we hire Henry.

 

 

 

Edited October 8, 2018 by One For The Road

[bobzy]

1 minute ago, One For The Road said:

True. But we are in a worse position as a club than derby with far higher expectations. This is a club so big that some people on this very forum think we can attract some of the worlds top managers and yet we are now after a man with no managerial experience. I kew we wouldn't be getting any of the silly names being mentioned (for which I was lambasted by some), but I did at least think we would hire an actual manager and not a potential one.

I don't think it particularly matters.  Someone gave Carlo Ancelotti his first role. Barcelona promoted Pep Guardiola through the ranks.  Jose Mourinho started somewhere.

The only "right" candidate for us is the one who is successful.  CV wise, Steve Bruce was a sound choice but it didn't work out.  Personally, I wouldn't be fussed it we tried the inexperienced route next.

[One For The Road]

Just now, bobzy said:

I don't think it particularly matters.  Someone gave Carlo Ancelotti his first role. Barcelona promoted Pep Guardiola through the ranks.  Jose Mourinho started somewhere.

The only "right" candidate for us is the one who is successful.  CV wise, Steve Bruce was a sound choice but it didn't work out.  Personally, I wouldn't be fussed it we tried the inexperienced route next.

None of those managers took over a club in anything like the mess we are in. That keeps getting ignored, we are not 2009 Barcelona. This delicate position we are in requires careful management, not a flippant wild experiment.

[KenjiOgiwara]

12 minutes ago, One For The Road said:

It's called a CV. Everyone who applies for a job needs to prove they have sufficient qualifications for the position. Henry does not meet those requirements for me.

You really can't compare the football world with the requirement of the average work force joe.

But I digress, I just wanted to say that the reason we have to take a punt on someone with a weak CV is because if they had a great CV, they wouldn't come to us. 

I'd much rather take a few punts on something that could lead somewhere fantastic, than being stuck with all the Bruce's, McLeish's and Pardew's of this world. Even if that means being stuck with the odd shite manager from time to time.

[One For The Road]

1 minute ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

You really can't compare the football world with the requirement of the average work force joe.

But I digress, I just wanted to say that the reason we have to take a punt on someone with a weak CV is because if they had a great CV, they wouldn't come to us. 

I'd much rather take a few punts on something that could lead somewhere fantastic, than being stuck with all the Bruce's, McLeish's and Pardew's of this world. Even if that means being stuck with the odd shite manager from time to time.

What's wrong with Smith or Flores?

[KenjiOgiwara]

Just now, One For The Road said:

What's wrong with Smith or Flores?

I don't mind either, but I wouldn't say they have a great CV. 

[srsmithusa]

Just now, One For The Road said:

None of those managers took over a club in anything like the mess we are in. That keeps getting ignored, we are not 2009 Barcelona. This delicate position we are in requires careful management, not a flippant wild experiment.

in my view, the fact that we are disaster is a strong argument that we should go for someone that is not "tried and true with a good CV." (Bruce, Allardyce, Pullis, most obviously, Rodgers, Smith, Martinez to a lesser extent) or whatever wording you want.  Those guys all have the way they are used to. 

the fix for us requires something dramatically different from the tried and true.  We need radical surgery and the young doctor that understands the latest, even if he is lacking some experience, is IMO the better choice.

 

[One For The Road]

11 hours ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

I don't mind either, but I wouldn't say they have a great CV. 

They have far better CV's for this role than Henry does!

Smith has done an incredible job in management and Flores hasn't done bad either. Neither of them are a total punt which I'm afraid Henry would be. 

Edited October 9, 2018 by One For The Road

[ciggiesnbeer]

15 minutes ago, One For The Road said:

True. But we are in a worse position as a club than derby with far higher expectations. This is a club so big that some people on this very forum think we can attract some of the worlds top managers and yet we are now after a man with no managerial experience.

I knew we wouldn't be getting any of the silly names being mentioned (for which I was lambasted by some), but I did at least think we would hire an actual manager and not a potential one.

I will be devastated if we hire Henry.

Which non british manager would you like to see who you think is gettable? Curious.  I say non british just because I have zero interest in them. Edit: Flores I guess? I would be fine with that.

Edited October 8, 2018 by ciggiesnbeer

[One For The Road]

Just now, ciggiesnbeer said:

Which non british manager would you like to see who you think is gettable? Curious.  I say non British just because I have zero interest in them.

You have zero interest in someone based on their nationality? And you expect me to have to want someone on the same terms? 

Well, it is a bizarre attitude to have but if I MUST play this game then I will say Flores. Who I mentioned in my last post.

But can I ask, why are you prejudiced towards a man based on his nationality?

[KenjiOgiwara]

4 minutes ago, One For The Road said:

They have far better CV's for this role than Henry does!

Smith has done an incredible jon in management and Flores hasn't done bad either. Neither of them are a total punt which I'm afraid Henry would be. 

Bit of a Strawman argument. They have a better CV than Henry cause he currently doesn't have one. He could very well turn out to be a great manager and then we would have **** all chance on landing him, thus we are in a position where we got to take risks. 

[bobzy]

2 minutes ago, One For The Road said:

None of those managers took over a club in anything like the mess we are in. That keeps getting ignored, we are not 2009 Barcelona. This delicate position we are in requires careful management, not a flippant wild experiment.

Are we in that much of a mess?  I'll caveat that by saying I don't know what the implications will be regarding our poor financial control over recent seasons, but our main problem (and it's a big one for now, sure) is a lack of defensive depth.  If we can address that in January, we should be challenging for the playoff places, if not further.

We have new owners who are (hopefully) passionate about our club right now, a whole wealth of attacking talent and, despite only 1 win in 10 matches, lie 4 points outside the top 6.  I'm not convinced this is as big a shambles as is being made out?  It's mainly a tough job because, as you rightly said earlier, expectations are very high.

[Keener window-cleaner]

20 hours ago, AvfcRigo82 said:

Not picking fault as such here KW-C but I see something in Henry that I wouldn't necessarily see in other 'new start' managers say Steven Gerrard.

I admire Henry for stepping away from Nevilles computer on a Sunday afternoon and actually going for it as a manager.

You say Henry has no experience as a manager except being assistant in the Belgium squad (finished 3rd in the World Cup) and he was a big influence from what has been gathered.

I think Henry is no more of a gamble than any manager nowadays really but hey, we all have to start somewhere in life I guess.

Let's use Zidane as an example:

Not bad for a player that after retiring has only really been an assistant manager and a reserve team manager.

- One hell of a gamble by Real Madrid and it paid off.

I think the gamble is the unknown that you correctly highlight, his philosophies, methods,formations etc. and I have a confidence that he just does not talk a good game.

Henry is another player who has done it all in his playing career and now stepping into management with the experience of being an international assistant and with the nous he has picked up through working with some of the best managers in his career at the time will have been absorbed by him. He is someone who has a clue about todays modern game and how football is evolving.

Giving the job to John Terry right now would be a worry for me given that he has had slightly less experience than Henry which is what the owners/board correctly pinpointed, but it is not by that much of a margin but a sensible move nonetheless.

Terry already knows the team anyway which is a good head start and I believe he will also have a massive influence coming back here.

Both TerryThierry will also have an interesting wealth of contacts between them and on top of that potentially some of the hottest up coming players in europe to work with.

I think it is fair to conclude this by knowing that ThierryTerry have both had magnificent playing careers at the highest level, worked under some of the best managers in world football and between them have won every trophy possible.

For me, I don't see any problem and if anything what a coup thisnis and I am pleased as any with this appointment.

I understand what you mean, and I would also be excited to see what Henry would bring, I'm not sure if it would be reasonable from a owners point of view to take the gamble though. I hope our owners don't like to gamble when it comes to decisions on finances for example!

One of my points was that the video analysis don't say much. Give Bruce or even Grant Holt time to prepare and they could probably as well analyse a goal "Look winger goes left - Grealish gets space in the middle - pass to Kodjia, flick to Abraham who runs in the space - goal - play, possession, position". To me such video analysis shouldn't be part of the equation of being our new manager.

I share the view that Henry seems very interested in football and is very knowledgeable (like Lukaku highlighted during the WC) I don't doubt it. But for me being a manager is so much more than that. It's about how able you are to get your message across to the players, how you act as a leader, how you deal with persons, handle conflicts and setbacks etc. etc. Henry is an unknown quantity in these aspects. Henry's involvement in the French scandal during the World Cup in South Africa is a warning sign for me for someone who is marketed as being a leader. Being no 2 is another role. Some are great in that role but not as the manager.

Then comes the football part - I have absolutely no idea of what kind of formation, tactics etc. Henry will play. I get it that the owners will have made more research, but I don't have that info so I can only go by what I know, and that's nothing at the moment. If he had managed before we could at least get a hint. It would be interesting to know how he acts after a run of losses for example, would he be the Eddie Howe type who insists on playing his own passing style no matter what, or would he be the Steve Bruce type who would be cautious and park the bus to grind out a point away? We have no idea with Henry as he hasn't been tested.

I see your point with Zidane, I think it's another thing to be elevated through your own ranks though. I wouldn't mind trying Agnew for a few games for example.

Now don't get me wrong, I think it would be exciting to have Henry, mainly because I have now idea how it would go, like playing roulette, which is exciting!

I agree that getting Terry in toghether with Henry would make a difference, that would make the Henry appointment less of a gamble! 

[One For The Road]

1 minute ago, bobzy said:

Are we in that much of a mess?  I'll caveat that by saying I don't know what the implications will be regarding our poor financial control over recent seasons, but our main problem (and it's a big one for now, sure) is a lack of defensive depth.  If we can address that in January, we should be challenging for the playoff places, if not further.

We have new owners who are (hopefully) passionate about our club right now, a whole wealth of attacking talent and, despite only 1 win in 10 matches, lie 4 points outside the top 6.  I'm not convinced this is as big a shambles as is being made out?  It's mainly a tough job because, as you rightly said earlier, expectations are very high.

We have no defence and we can't spend any money to fix it. The little we CAN spend will not be until January where we will be too far adrift.

Next season we will be in an even worse position if we don't go up. We are in a mess.

[Zatman]

12 minutes ago, KenjiOgiwara said:

I don't mind either, but I wouldn't say they have a great CV. 

Flores has Atletico, Valencia and Benfica on his CV along with a Europa League and a La Liga promotion

Edited October 8, 2018 by Zatman

[Spoony]

17 minutes ago, One For The Road said:

None of those managers took over a club in anything like the mess we are in. That keeps getting ignored, we are not 2009 Barcelona. This delicate position we are in requires careful management, not a flippant wild experiment.

You can flip that round. Bruce is exactly the “right guy” for a club in the mess we are in. So are Allardyce and Moyes.

Time for something new. At least under Garde you could see he was trying to modernise the way we play. He was just absolutely shafted by the whole situation.

[bobzy]

1 minute ago, One For The Road said:

We have no defence and we can't spend any money to fix it. The little we CAN spend will not be until January where we will be too far adrift.

Next season we will be in an even worse position if we don't go up. We are in a mess.

Why will we be too far adrift in January?  Further, if this is the case, what's the point in going for an experienced manager if we're so doomed? Why not try someone new since we're **** anyway?

I don't understand your logic here.